Will God Still Love Me If I Abort?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:06.400 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord, 2 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:11.470 I am yours. I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. 3 00:00:11.789 --> 00:00:14.750 What do you respond to a young lady that says, well, God still 4 00:00:14.869 --> 00:00:18.550 love me if I have the abortion. I'm going to talk about this from 5 00:00:18.550 --> 00:00:28.260 a biblical perspective, so stay tuned. I felt show passish, touch your 6 00:00:28.780 --> 00:00:38.850 heart. Use Me. Welcome back to the Gospel Center Praer Life podcast. 7 00:00:39.210 --> 00:00:43.369 Appreciate you guys listening and we would encourage you guys to share this podcast so 8 00:00:43.490 --> 00:00:47.810 that it can be a blessing to other people encourage other people also encourage you. 9 00:00:47.850 --> 00:00:52.560 As always. Good our sidewalks for life website sidewalks the number four lifecom. 10 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:58.079 There's a section there called equipping articles to help equip you and as always, 11 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:03.039 are almost always we have a corresponding article that goes along with this podcast 12 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:07.349 and we kind of use that as our framework to do this episode of the 13 00:01:07.430 --> 00:01:11.549 Podcast, and we speak out of experience when we share these stories. We 14 00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:18.069 share you. We've shared case studies in times past of situations we've actually encountered 15 00:01:18.739 --> 00:01:23.420 and recently we've been sharing some training stuff just to equip you guys. Continue 16 00:01:23.459 --> 00:01:26.540 to train those who who've already been trained and encourage those who haven't yet been 17 00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:32.180 trained with some of the training stuff. And, as I've mentioned in a 18 00:01:32.219 --> 00:01:34.489 couple of episodes, we have a training that we do every month, the 19 00:01:34.569 --> 00:01:38.010 first Saturday of every month, from to pm to four PM, where we 20 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:42.689 own zoom train folks to do sidewalk out reachs. We take our experiences, 21 00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:48.959 we take what we use locally as our training for our volunteers and we make 22 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:51.920 it available to you. If you want to get plugged in with that, 23 00:01:52.079 --> 00:01:53.920 you could reach out to me, Daniel at Love Life Dot Org, and 24 00:01:55.000 --> 00:01:57.040 I'll get you the necessary form to fill out. I would just need an 25 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:01.629 application from you with some information about you and get you in the hopper to 26 00:02:01.829 --> 00:02:05.829 attend that. So we encourage you to take advantage of that. We think 27 00:02:05.870 --> 00:02:09.189 it'll be a real blessing to you. And with that this subject that we're 28 00:02:09.189 --> 00:02:13.509 going to be covering, maybe you kind of once we get into it, 29 00:02:13.550 --> 00:02:16.219 you understand what we're talking about here. But the title of the article is 30 00:02:16.620 --> 00:02:23.699 the article that I have right here, written by written by Vicky, and 31 00:02:23.780 --> 00:02:29.379 it says what if they ask, will God still love me if I abort? 32 00:02:29.620 --> 00:02:32.090 Yeah, and so the question well be what does anybody ever ask that? 33 00:02:34.169 --> 00:02:37.530 Well, if you're at an abortion center any amount of time, you're 34 00:02:37.530 --> 00:02:42.330 going to find maybe not this question exactly, but some variation of this question. 35 00:02:42.770 --> 00:02:46.240 Lover, forgive God, steel forgive me. Won't God still forgive me? 36 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:50.400 Sometimes it's not a question, sometimes it's it's a definite statement. Right, 37 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.800 God loves me and God will forgive me. Yeah, and so what 38 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:58.360 do you say in those situations? I know we've talked about forgiveness and how 39 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.229 we introduce the subject of forgiveness. Certainly, God is a forgiving God. 40 00:03:01.389 --> 00:03:07.669 God is a god of mercy. We sit here now recording this podcast because 41 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:10.990 of the mercy and the forgiveness that God has brought in our lives. Yep, 42 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:15.500 we are here now because of the love of God towards us. God 43 00:03:15.819 --> 00:03:21.500 loves human beings. The evidence of that, of course, is the cross 44 00:03:21.539 --> 00:03:24.340 of Jesus Christ, and so we see the mercy, we see the love 45 00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:30.530 of God. The real issue is, I'll let you share kind of the 46 00:03:30.610 --> 00:03:32.289 foundation of this, let you share where this float out of. But the 47 00:03:32.610 --> 00:03:38.210 real issue is, I think, one of timing and one of wording and 48 00:03:38.289 --> 00:03:40.840 how we word, because we don't want to word things in such a way. 49 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:45.439 It's what we talked about, not sharing the message of forgiveness while they're 50 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.599 walking into the abortion say right, yelling to a mom that's walking into an 51 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:53.599 abortion center God will forgive you is almost, almost one of the worst things 52 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:54.909 you could possibly say. It is, but that it's one of the few 53 00:03:55.069 --> 00:04:00.030 bad things that you can say that really will fuel that abortion. Absolutely yeah, 54 00:04:00.110 --> 00:04:02.189 because what these women are looking for a lot of times are grasping for 55 00:04:02.710 --> 00:04:08.509 a justification to abort their child and we don't want to give them a justification 56 00:04:08.710 --> 00:04:12.740 to do that. So is it true that God's forgiving? Yes, is 57 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:15.660 it true that God will forgive those women if they have an abortion? Not 58 00:04:15.899 --> 00:04:21.019 necessarily. Actually, biblically speaking, God doesn't forgive. God's not beholding to 59 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:26.089 human beings. Right. God doesn't have to forgive anyone for anything. God 60 00:04:26.129 --> 00:04:30.290 choose us to forgive of people based on repentance of sin and faith in Jesus 61 00:04:30.329 --> 00:04:34.089 Christ. So if you're yelling out God will forgive you, you're actually not 62 00:04:34.449 --> 00:04:39.000 sharing the whole truth, because it's not always true that God's going to forgive 63 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:42.160 them. If they don't repent, then they won't be forgiven. If they 64 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.120 don't put their trust in Jesus Christ, then there's no basis for forgiveness. 65 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.120 Right. So, not to get to death to end depth with the theological 66 00:04:50.600 --> 00:04:55.550 truth of that, but it's a theological truth that we all need to reckon 67 00:04:55.629 --> 00:04:58.829 with its biblical truth. Yeah, because sometimes we can speak out of our 68 00:04:58.870 --> 00:05:01.870 own emotions, in our own excitement or own grief or whatever, and say 69 00:05:01.949 --> 00:05:05.629 some things that are just not helpful. But I want you to share what 70 00:05:05.790 --> 00:05:11.139 this flowed out of while we're talking about this subject now and then we'll kind 71 00:05:11.180 --> 00:05:14.540 of break it down biblically, practically and all that. So this happened to 72 00:05:14.579 --> 00:05:16.699 me this week. This this was a question raised to me this week. 73 00:05:16.740 --> 00:05:19.819 This is a young lady that I've been counseling for months. Yeah, I 74 00:05:19.939 --> 00:05:24.410 mean I've got a relationship with her now. It's been it's been over two 75 00:05:24.410 --> 00:05:27.689 months. I think it's going on three months now that I've been counseling her. 76 00:05:27.730 --> 00:05:30.649 I know she trusts me. She I think she loves me. I 77 00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:34.569 love her. She's we have a strong relationship. I've been discipling her. 78 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:39.199 I've been she came to the Lord. She when she first called me, 79 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.959 she was very abortion minded. But she chose life, she came to the 80 00:05:43.160 --> 00:05:51.029 Lord and what followed was we basically provided every single need that she raised everything. 81 00:05:51.069 --> 00:06:00.230 Yeah, and I've been tech in her, calling her hours every day 82 00:06:00.589 --> 00:06:05.100 for months and then out of the blue she didn't contact me for a few 83 00:06:05.139 --> 00:06:11.899 days. That's always worrisome, and when she finally did, this was what 84 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.459 she asked me. So I of course knew what was happening. So she 85 00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:18.769 says, I get specifically abortion, will God still love me? Will God 86 00:06:18.850 --> 00:06:25.730 still love me if I have the abortion? And some and this is immediately 87 00:06:26.290 --> 00:06:31.250 the tension in my mind is okay, on one hand I'm thinking, well, 88 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:38.800 God will still love her if she has the abortion and she repents and 89 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:44.399 turns back to him. Just what you said. But I knew what she 90 00:06:44.639 --> 00:06:49.029 was really asking me was, first of all, will you still love me? 91 00:06:49.069 --> 00:06:51.990 Yeah, if I have the abortion. She did actually say that later. 92 00:06:54.910 --> 00:06:59.269 But secondly, can I go have this abortion? I want to have 93 00:06:59.470 --> 00:07:03.180 this abortion. Yeah, can you assure me that it's okay? That was 94 00:07:03.500 --> 00:07:08.540 really what she was asking Aspen for. Just she's grasping for justification. So 95 00:07:08.620 --> 00:07:12.500 I'm thinking, okay, I can't do that, but on the other hand 96 00:07:12.660 --> 00:07:16.449 this is a young girl and I'm thinking, what if she shuts off all 97 00:07:16.529 --> 00:07:20.930 communication, I never get ahold of her again. She goes and has the 98 00:07:21.050 --> 00:07:28.250 abortion and then is so filled with the grief of thinking God will never forgive 99 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:32.480 her, will never love her again, that she commits suicide or that she 100 00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.800 lives her life no longer. It just in bitterness, hurt, anger against 101 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:43.360 God and against the world because she feels she is unforgiven. Right, and 102 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:47.949 I'm thinking in my own mind, I'm here because I had an abortion and 103 00:07:48.350 --> 00:07:54.269 God forgave me. Yeah, how can I not tell her, yes, 104 00:07:54.389 --> 00:07:59.459 you can be forgiven, there can be life following abortion, but don't head, 105 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:03.339 don't kill your baby, don't kill this this precious child. So it 106 00:08:03.620 --> 00:08:09.300 was real for me. This question in this podcast is very fresh and very 107 00:08:09.740 --> 00:08:13.810 real for me. Yeah, and and so I kind of went through a 108 00:08:13.889 --> 00:08:18.769 whole process of how I solved that as best I knew how. Yeah, 109 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.170 and and that was kind of the article. It's based on the progression of 110 00:08:22.490 --> 00:08:31.560 things that went through my head. But the the first thing that went through 111 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:37.759 my head was I can't answer that question, that there is lose lose. 112 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.669 I can't think of any way to answer that question. And ultimately I came 113 00:08:43.710 --> 00:08:46.990 to the decision that wasn't the question. Yeah, that she should be asking 114 00:08:48.070 --> 00:08:52.350 and that I need. That's what I needed to say. But so it 115 00:08:52.509 --> 00:08:54.070 was kind of a progression. I kind of wanted to go through that progression. 116 00:08:54.149 --> 00:08:58.899 I know you'll have you'll have ideas about every one of these areas, 117 00:08:58.019 --> 00:09:03.860 but one of the things that that as the discussion progressed, was I was 118 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:09.169 thinking, this is something that is really hard to teach. Yeah, there 119 00:09:09.490 --> 00:09:16.450 is an art of counseling, and by that I mean it's not a formula. 120 00:09:16.490 --> 00:09:20.250 Right, it's not a formula. We can't tell you do this and 121 00:09:20.330 --> 00:09:22.129 then, if she says this, say this and then if she says this, 122 00:09:22.289 --> 00:09:28.720 say this. That's net. That never works. Right. There is 123 00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:33.240 an IT. It is it's almost like a dance in a way, between 124 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:39.830 you and the person you're counseling. They say or make a move and you 125 00:09:41.990 --> 00:09:46.190 are trying to be with them and in sync with them, that you hear 126 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:50.509 the cry of their heart, not necessarily the words, sure, and you 127 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:58.980 respond appropriate, like a dancer, yeah, following his partners or he partner 128 00:10:00.019 --> 00:10:05.019 leading. Yeah, I'll say one of the components, the I would say 129 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:13.769 maybe probably the most important component mm of counseling conversation in general is, first 130 00:10:13.809 --> 00:10:20.009 and foremost, listening. Yeah, actually hearing what they're saying and listening in 131 00:10:20.210 --> 00:10:22.919 such a way where you're getting the emotion that they're bringing. Now know, 132 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:28.639 obviously over the phone or through text, it's pretty difficult in a one on 133 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:33.240 conversation, especially though. We need to be listening, we need to be 134 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:37.629 watching body language, we need to be reading between the lines, not not 135 00:10:37.789 --> 00:10:43.269 attributing evil motives and ultimate arterior motives to people and that sort of thing, 136 00:10:43.309 --> 00:10:46.190 but reading between the lines of whether actually saying so. For example, when 137 00:10:46.269 --> 00:10:50.940 someone says will God still love me if I abhorred? Reading the between the 138 00:10:52.059 --> 00:10:54.899 lines is picking up on the fact that they're looking for some kind of justification 139 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:00.820 to have the abortion right. They're really not asking a question, they're telling 140 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:05.049 you something that they believe. YEA, and it is important for us if 141 00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:09.610 we're going to give good and godly counsel. The Bible says we shouldn't stand 142 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.809 under the council of the wicked right. The council the wicked brings destruction. 143 00:11:13.250 --> 00:11:16.889 So we're the righteous because of Jesus, and we want to bring righteous counsel. 144 00:11:18.210 --> 00:11:20.919 You going to be listened to what people are saying and then answering the 145 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.000 questions in a biblical manner right instead of just out of our own humanity, 146 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:28.639 because out of our own humanity and out of her own kind of emotions or 147 00:11:28.679 --> 00:11:31.360 whatever, right away we want to respond with we yes, of course God 148 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:35.029 will love you, because we wanted to spell any notion that somehow God might 149 00:11:35.070 --> 00:11:37.509 be a God of judgment, you know, in our American Christian mindsets. 150 00:11:37.509 --> 00:11:41.629 Right, I want to try to dispel any notion that God might actually hate 151 00:11:41.870 --> 00:11:46.419 people or hate things that people do. It's a right away we want respond, 152 00:11:46.460 --> 00:11:48.899 of course you'll love you. Yeah, but that, I might not 153 00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:54.860 actually be the best response, right because really, re reading between the lines, 154 00:11:56.100 --> 00:11:58.659 whe they're saying, of course, listen. I'll just say it right 155 00:11:58.700 --> 00:12:03.169 off. Bad. Of course God loved me while I was dead in my 156 00:12:03.289 --> 00:12:07.730 trespasses and sins. The Bible says that while we were yet, while we 157 00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:11.649 were at sinners, yeah, Romans five eight, yeah, God demonstrated his 158 00:12:11.809 --> 00:12:13.929 own love toward us. If we didn't have a love toward us, then 159 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:18.080 he wouldn't have had anything to demonstrate. Right. So we did have a 160 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:20.799 love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners. Christ died for 161 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:26.559 us. So he not just loved us in his in his eternal heart, 162 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:31.470 but he actually did something to display that love. The Cross is that display? 163 00:12:31.269 --> 00:12:35.230 So, yes, God loves sinners, God loves rebels. He loved 164 00:12:35.309 --> 00:12:39.149 me while I was a rebel. Right, he loved you. Why you 165 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:43.190 are rebel. So yes, that's true. But in this situation, is 166 00:12:43.230 --> 00:12:48.019 it really the best thing to say, given what we know, that she's 167 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:52.019 digging for? She's digging for justification right to board her child? Right? 168 00:12:52.659 --> 00:12:56.460 I don't think that it is. Yeah, yeah, and I didn't think 169 00:12:56.460 --> 00:13:00.330 so either, and so I knew I could not answer that question. So 170 00:13:00.490 --> 00:13:03.649 there's I love what you said. You have to listen first and asking other 171 00:13:03.690 --> 00:13:09.970 question, asking questions and as you're listening, helping to lead them, hopefully, 172 00:13:09.169 --> 00:13:15.320 to the true heart issue. Yeah, which is really should I have 173 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.039 this abortion? That's what she's saying. Is it okay to have this abortion? 174 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:22.519 Yeah, I think in listening in that particular conversation, one of the 175 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.600 questions I would ask, and again I'm not asking in some accusing way. 176 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.830 I think we have to be careful in the way that we come across that 177 00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:31.950 we're not asking in some accusing way, right, because we can shut the 178 00:13:31.029 --> 00:13:37.029 conversation down immediately. But if she asked me this question, God still love 179 00:13:37.070 --> 00:13:39.149 me if I aboord? I'll ask. Okay, can you? Can you 180 00:13:39.190 --> 00:13:43.460 explain to me exactly why you're asking that question, exactly what I did. 181 00:13:43.539 --> 00:13:46.299 We are INSTINC here, Daniel, that did it. I said, what 182 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.580 are you saying? Well, what are you saying and that, and then 183 00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:54.139 she was very open. She said I want to, I'm going to go 184 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.570 aboard the Child. Shouldn't and wasn't a question. Then it is. I'm 185 00:13:58.690 --> 00:14:01.330 going to go aboard my baby. Yeah, that was what she said. 186 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.529 You know, one of the things that I would say in that particular conversation, 187 00:14:05.210 --> 00:14:09.480 because I like to I like to take people's again, not in some 188 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:13.080 like manipulative way or whatever it, take the thoughts that they're thinking, the 189 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:16.600 things they put out there and kind of turn it back on them as a 190 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.840 mirror. I think that's biblical. Yeah, is the word of God is 191 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:24.309 a mirror to us. Speaks of that in James Chapter two. I think 192 00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:28.629 that the law of God is a mirror. And so if she's asking me, 193 00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:33.230 well, God still love me if I abort this child, I'll ask 194 00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:37.509 her, well, Does God love you now? And most people will say 195 00:14:37.509 --> 00:14:41.460 yes. This is kind of my full proof pro life argument, right. 196 00:14:41.700 --> 00:14:46.019 Is God's God love you? Yes, and then ask the question. Okay, 197 00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:50.899 when did God begin to love you? Was it five minutes ago, 198 00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:54.330 was it five years ago? Was it when you were born? Or did 199 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:58.809 God love you even before you were born? And biblically, and I think 200 00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:01.889 we want to lead them to the point where they understand that God loved them 201 00:15:01.929 --> 00:15:07.720 before they're even born and established that as a biblical truth, because it is. 202 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.519 Yeah, and then take it a little step further and say, well, 203 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.279 if God loved you before you were born, he loves you now. 204 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.960 Doesn't he also love your baby? So then, are you using the love 205 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:26.350 of God as justification to kill another person that God also loves? That, 206 00:15:26.549 --> 00:15:28.830 to me, is the question needs to be put out there. Yeah, 207 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:31.909 and that's really, really good way of phrasing it. Yeah, she had. 208 00:15:33.149 --> 00:15:35.220 I had had, because I've been trained by the best. I had 209 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:41.980 already had the discussion with her previously over those months about your fail safe pro 210 00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:45.340 life argument, and it definitely was very convincing to her. Yeah, so 211 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.100 she had heard that. She had already heard that. I did not question 212 00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:52.970 it in the way that you say it again, because I think what you 213 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.970 said at the end there, the way you phrase that, was really good. 214 00:15:56.009 --> 00:15:58.450 Yeah, just asking the question. Are you using the love of God 215 00:15:58.610 --> 00:16:04.480 for you to justify you taking the life of someone who God also loves? 216 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:07.399 Right, yeah, and in essence, what you're trying to bring before them 217 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:11.279 is you are you trying to are you trying to say that God somehow loves 218 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:15.480 you more than he loves your baby? Right, even though he loved you 219 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.429 and new you all you're in your mother's womb. He loves and knows your 220 00:16:18.470 --> 00:16:22.429 baby, but you're trying to use that love that he has for using it 221 00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:26.429 as a justification to kill your child. Yeah, yeah, so you're putting 222 00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:30.830 it back in her court also. Then, instead of answering the question, 223 00:16:30.750 --> 00:16:36.539 you're actually asking another question. Right, that in dress one who think I 224 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:40.139 can't thought. Right. Yeah, want to, yea provoke thought, and 225 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.220 you want to bring in the component that I think it's very important in any 226 00:16:44.220 --> 00:16:48.009 of these situations is conviction. Like you want them to feel the conviction. 227 00:16:48.049 --> 00:16:51.850 A lot of times, getting people to repeat the things that they said. 228 00:16:51.889 --> 00:16:55.769 Yeah, things that, to your ears, are like doesn't she see how 229 00:16:55.929 --> 00:16:57.730 stupid that sounded. I don't know, I'll just say for me, I 230 00:16:57.769 --> 00:17:00.799 don't know. I've said things that are just really stupid in my wife repeats 231 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.319 it back to him like yeah, that was pretty pretty stupid. Right. 232 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.400 Sometimes it takes us repeating something back, or maybe he's rewarding it and say 233 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.079 are you saying this then? So, are you saying them because God loves 234 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:18.869 you and even though he does love your baby, that somehow he loves you 235 00:17:18.109 --> 00:17:22.150 more than your baby? Yeah, and what are you basing that on? 236 00:17:22.670 --> 00:17:25.990 You know? So saying it back and and maybe getting them to repeat it 237 00:17:26.069 --> 00:17:30.259 back sometimes can be a little convicting, because think to your next point as 238 00:17:30.339 --> 00:17:33.819 we want to trust in the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and 239 00:17:33.019 --> 00:17:37.859 exactly. The conviction does not come from us, right, comes from the 240 00:17:37.940 --> 00:17:44.490 Holy Spirit. So it's got a and and so Jesus fought Satan through scripture. 241 00:17:44.490 --> 00:17:48.170 Yeah, so bringing in that, that scriptural conviction, yeah, absolute 242 00:17:48.170 --> 00:17:53.049 less critical and giving the Holy Spirit space right to do his work. I 243 00:17:53.210 --> 00:17:57.210 know in conversations, in one on one conversations with MOMS and dad's on the 244 00:17:57.250 --> 00:18:00.799 sidewalk, we can kind of get because it is a life and death scenario. 245 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.960 We can kind of get really excited and we can kind of get into 246 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.400 situation where we're just saying our peace and we're trying to get all the information 247 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.359 out there that we can, but we do need to give space to listen 248 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.750 to them and then give space to the Holy Spirit to do his work right, 249 00:18:15.869 --> 00:18:18.470 to drop, you know, I like to drop some truth bombs and 250 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:21.670 just let him stew on it for a couple of seconds rather than me just 251 00:18:21.750 --> 00:18:23.869 trying to jump in and throw another, another truth bomb in there. Right, 252 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:27.140 you got to give people time to process things, to think about it, 253 00:18:27.380 --> 00:18:32.019 to repeat what was just said, to stew on it in their minds, 254 00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:34.700 and then again, the Holy Spirit can do his work, because we 255 00:18:34.779 --> 00:18:38.059 can do all that we want, we can throw out all kinds of scriptures, 256 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:41.809 we can throw out all kinds of ideas and try to do as best 257 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:48.009 we can to convict someone make them feel guilty, but in reality it's the 258 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:52.289 Holy Spirit that's if anyone's ever going to do that in a productive way, 259 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.559 bring conviction and make people feel guilty, which, by the way, the 260 00:18:56.680 --> 00:19:00.240 Holy Spirit does do that. The Holy Spirit does make people feel guilty. 261 00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:06.160 This whole notion that God is not a god of guilt. God does alleviate 262 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:11.990 guilt if we turn to him, but he uses guilt to bring conviction so 263 00:19:11.150 --> 00:19:15.029 that people will repent. Right. So guilt in this scenario is a good 264 00:19:15.150 --> 00:19:19.029 thing. This young lady needs to feel the Gilt of her rebellion, yeah, 265 00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:23.109 of her consideration of aborting a child that God loves. It's made in 266 00:19:23.190 --> 00:19:26.859 his image. So we need to give space again for the Holy Spirit to 267 00:19:26.019 --> 00:19:30.339 bring guilt, yeah, to bring conviction. Yeah, so the ultimately they 268 00:19:30.339 --> 00:19:33.500 can be led to repentance. Yeah. So let relying on the Holy Spirit. 269 00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:38.529 And then I knew, and that's part of where I think you're also 270 00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:44.210 heading, is, is I knew that she needed to be confronted with some 271 00:19:44.450 --> 00:19:49.049 really hard questions. Absolutely, and the only way that I felt that I 272 00:19:49.289 --> 00:19:56.039 could do that is because of my next kind of big point. I had 273 00:19:56.119 --> 00:20:03.039 a relationship with her, and not everyone can have months to develop a relationship 274 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.869 with an abortion minded mom, but use whatever time you have to develop a 275 00:20:08.029 --> 00:20:12.710 relationship. Yeah, however shallow a relationship or quick a relationship it might be, 276 00:20:14.069 --> 00:20:18.549 but where you're establishing trust. And so, knowing that, knowing that 277 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:23.460 the power of conviction comes from the Holy Spirit, I knew I needed to 278 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:30.140 hit her with some really hard truths. YEA, and key to that is 279 00:20:30.259 --> 00:20:34.180 when. When is the best timing? Early on and developing the relationship with 280 00:20:34.339 --> 00:20:41.849 her, that was not the time to be describing an excruciating detail an abortion. 281 00:20:41.890 --> 00:20:47.609 Yeah, but now, with a advanced pregnancy, she needed it to 282 00:20:47.690 --> 00:20:51.200 know, she needed to know what was going to happen, yeah, to 283 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:57.759 that child. And and so you can't bring the I think you have to. 284 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:02.079 Again, it's part of the art of counseling. But I don't think 285 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:07.230 you can introduce those super, super hard truth right away or they'll just turn 286 00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:10.589 off though, hang up the phone, they'll walk away, they'll walk into 287 00:21:10.589 --> 00:21:15.750 the abortion center. So I do think those those truths have to come after 288 00:21:15.230 --> 00:21:22.859 you've prayed, after the Holy Spirit has entered in some degree and has started 289 00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:26.579 that feeling of guilt and conviction within them, and after there is at least 290 00:21:26.619 --> 00:21:32.930 some element of trust with you, that that you can say something and they're 291 00:21:32.930 --> 00:21:37.210 not just going to run away. Throughout the the next segment of that discussion 292 00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:41.009 with her, I thought, I mean I was desperate. I was feeling 293 00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:45.490 desperate because she was still saying I'm going to I'm going to kill this baby. 294 00:21:45.569 --> 00:21:47.920 There's I love you, Vicky, but there's nothing you can say. 295 00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:52.960 At one point I said I have nothing left to say, I've said all 296 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:56.200 I know to say to you, and she said there is nothing you can 297 00:21:56.319 --> 00:22:00.079 say. Yeah, and I think that was the point in which I went 298 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.069 to you, Daniel, and said I don't know what to do, and 299 00:22:02.190 --> 00:22:06.269 you basically said you do nothing. You know, you've kind of said it 300 00:22:06.390 --> 00:22:11.549 all. It might be time to just wait and and let the Holy Spirit 301 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:15.940 convict, which I did for one evening, and that was about as long 302 00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:19.700 as I could stand not saying anything that next morning because I was afraid that 303 00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:22.740 was the morning she was going to abort. Yeah, and I don't know 304 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:30.849 why I thought that, but I I then just really I laid it on 305 00:22:32.009 --> 00:22:37.250 pretty thick. I described in detail what happens, what a baby the bit 306 00:22:37.369 --> 00:22:41.130 the age of her baby would be going through. Yeah, I sent her 307 00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:48.400 multiple videos of babies the age of her baby. Sure in you to row 308 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.920 the actual videos of actual babies. I sent her a video of an abortion. 309 00:22:52.960 --> 00:23:04.950 Yeah, and and then there was silence and and I asked her if 310 00:23:06.069 --> 00:23:08.509 she watched any of them and she said no, I can't. Yeah, 311 00:23:08.549 --> 00:23:15.460 and then I said, you can't watch them because you know that if you 312 00:23:15.619 --> 00:23:19.940 do, it will convict you, you of the truth, of God's truth, 313 00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:25.740 that this is a little person in your boom and that you're thinking of 314 00:23:25.900 --> 00:23:32.609 doing something really unspeakable. Yeah, I want to mention here you're talking about 315 00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:37.049 kind of a more in depth and at length conversation that you've had with a 316 00:23:37.130 --> 00:23:40.130 young lady. Yeah, and there's scenarias in which were able to do that. 317 00:23:40.410 --> 00:23:42.160 Yeah, at an abortion center, in front of the abortion center, 318 00:23:42.200 --> 00:23:45.799 in a sidewall caunseling scenario. We're not always is able to write, but 319 00:23:45.960 --> 00:23:51.440 there's still this this kind of progression of things is still possible, and I 320 00:23:51.559 --> 00:23:56.349 do feel like this, I guess, progression of things is important. YEA, 321 00:23:56.430 --> 00:23:59.950 that we're not coming out right off the bat with the hard hitting stuff, 322 00:24:00.109 --> 00:24:03.430 right, the violence that abortion brings. Yeah, because what we want 323 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:07.789 to do, like you mentioned, and it's kind of like a micro causm, 324 00:24:07.910 --> 00:24:11.539 I guess, of what you're dealing with on the sidewalk in a maybe 325 00:24:11.660 --> 00:24:15.380 thirty, forty five minute conversation is build a relationship, and you build a 326 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:21.180 relationship with some money and you can build a relationship with somebody in ten or 327 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.490 fifteen minutes now. It's not going to be obviously a very deep relationship. 328 00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:29.130 It's not going to have all the you know, all the benefits of an 329 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:33.890 indepth, lengthy relationship. Yeah, but you can build a relationship and one 330 00:24:33.930 --> 00:24:37.289 of the ways you do that is by, like they say, and it's 331 00:24:37.329 --> 00:24:41.559 maybe Cliche, but people don't care how much you know until they know how 332 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:45.960 much you care. Right, showing them that you care, showing them that 333 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.440 you're concerned about the things that are going on on your in their life, 334 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.230 not just writing off. Listen, we know, we all agree, everybody 335 00:24:53.269 --> 00:24:56.789 who's listening to this podcast agrees with this. If you don't, then you 336 00:24:56.829 --> 00:25:03.470 can stop listening to this podcast, that there is no justification to kill a 337 00:25:03.589 --> 00:25:08.420 baby. There's no justification for abortion, absolutely no justification for it. That 338 00:25:08.619 --> 00:25:14.500 being said, though, we should not just immediately right off the justifications these 339 00:25:14.660 --> 00:25:18.099 people are using, because if you want to tear down the relationship, then 340 00:25:18.180 --> 00:25:22.250 do that. Then right off people's concerns. You know, husband and wife 341 00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:26.210 relationship. Listen husband's if you want to really ruin your relationship with your wife 342 00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:29.410 and you want a fast track to do that, then right off her concerns. 343 00:25:29.450 --> 00:25:30.849 Yeah, say what, they don't matter. Listen, look at this, 344 00:25:32.009 --> 00:25:33.009 look at that. You know, do the same thing wives, if 345 00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:37.599 you want to just ruin your relationship with your husband, and hopefully you guys 346 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.359 will take the opposite of ice here. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, 347 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.680 need to take people's concerned seriously, even though sometimes they're stupid concerns. 348 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.549 They're not justifiable concerns, at least in their minds they are for a season. 349 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:53.430 So we need to listen to those concerns. We need to let them 350 00:25:53.509 --> 00:25:56.430 know that we care about those concerns. Yeah, and listen. I think 351 00:25:56.549 --> 00:26:00.509 God cares about those concerns. Now he just because God cares about the concerns 352 00:26:00.549 --> 00:26:06.299 that people have doesn't mean he justifies the behavior that they want to use in 353 00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:11.339 the light of those concerns. Right. So being concerned, helping people to 354 00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:15.099 see that you're concerned, is not agreement that their concern is a valid one. 355 00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:18.490 Yeah, but it's at least listening, because you cannot have a relationship 356 00:26:18.529 --> 00:26:26.890 with another person if there isn't conversation, and conversation includes you talking and you 357 00:26:26.049 --> 00:26:30.009 listening. They talk and they listen, right, and that's the foundation of 358 00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:33.279 this relationship. On the sidewalks the foundation that relationship. You're having the right 359 00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:37.119 light and that's how you help to establish trust, is that they know that 360 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.920 you're hearing them. And actually after it was right after all of this really 361 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:48.430 hard stuff that I'm hitting her with, that I said, what's what's really 362 00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:52.869 going on? Yeah, why, I said? I because I was she 363 00:26:52.029 --> 00:26:56.630 had gone from we were talking baby names to the two days before and all 364 00:26:56.750 --> 00:27:02.460 of a sudden she's talking abortion. I knew something must have happened, and 365 00:27:03.019 --> 00:27:10.940 it did. Something did happen and and it was really related to Justin very 366 00:27:11.420 --> 00:27:18.329 strong fear of childbirth itself. It was just she was terrified of the idea 367 00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:23.450 of childbirth and and asking more and more questions about. Well, what was 368 00:27:23.529 --> 00:27:30.079 it about childbirth? And as I delve into that, I found out there 369 00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:37.039 had been significant childhood trauma. Yeah, I had never known. She in 370 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:41.680 all those months of her with me, I had not known. And and 371 00:27:42.119 --> 00:27:48.230 when I knew that, everything made sense so much of the things that had 372 00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:53.109 happened over those few months. And so then I could directly address that. 373 00:27:53.670 --> 00:27:57.509 Yeah, and which I did, and we got onto a discussion of all 374 00:27:57.619 --> 00:28:04.220 things, of circumcision of babies, and she started she was adamant. She 375 00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:10.339 still talking abortion. Yeah, but she said she would never have a baby 376 00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.289 circumcise, because how could you cut off a piece of a human being? 377 00:28:15.529 --> 00:28:23.130 She said that's child abuse. And then that was the perfect opening to remind 378 00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.720 her of what happens in an abortion, yeah, of a child that age, 379 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:36.400 where they are literally cutting off the arms and legs and body of that 380 00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:41.990 of that baby. And that was the turning point where she then came to 381 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:51.509 the realization of she said, do you think abortion is child abuse? And 382 00:28:51.710 --> 00:28:55.390 if, like when you said stupid, it did like started. Are you 383 00:28:55.470 --> 00:28:57.500 kidding at that was my first I want to say, are are you kidding 384 00:28:59.900 --> 00:29:06.339 it's it's of course, yeah, but she had to reach that realization on 385 00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:15.769 her own and that was that was when I could shift into a message that 386 00:29:17.450 --> 00:29:22.569 involved God's mercy, yeah, and love and forgiveness, because what she needed 387 00:29:22.609 --> 00:29:27.799 at that point, and it was clear, was was reassurance. But that 388 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:34.440 comes to then exactly where you've gone of when was the time to give up 389 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:42.470 in me speaking and give God the the time to convict and and this was 390 00:29:42.549 --> 00:29:49.150 a point where I was just silent in the discussion and she started talking then 391 00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:55.380 about in fact, she said it at that point she said maybe I need 392 00:29:55.420 --> 00:30:00.940 to be contacting, maybe I I need, you know, a birthing center, 393 00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:06.339 something where it was able. Then how do ideal with the real fear, 394 00:30:06.819 --> 00:30:11.650 which is the fear of the actual childbirth? Yeah, and leading us 395 00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:15.049 to the next major thing that happened, which was when to call in the 396 00:30:15.170 --> 00:30:18.450 rest of the team, which I had all along. There were many people 397 00:30:19.210 --> 00:30:25.279 that were interacting with her, but directly addressing the fear of childbirth. I 398 00:30:25.400 --> 00:30:30.680 had team members that are trained. We have a high res Dr Edith and 399 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:34.599 and I called her in and at that point and said, hey, could 400 00:30:34.599 --> 00:30:40.750 you text her? She she really needs reassurance from someone in the medical field 401 00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:48.670 that knows what's going to happen, and all of us need those people in 402 00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:51.299 our lives. If we don't have them in our ministry, we need to 403 00:30:51.380 --> 00:30:56.539 find them. That those team members that are kind of experts in in areas 404 00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:00.339 outside of our own. Yeah, expertise that we can call and with that 405 00:31:02.299 --> 00:31:07.569 kind of the basis of introducing another voice into the equation can be the relationship 406 00:31:07.609 --> 00:31:10.849 that you already have built with someone. Right and again, it can even 407 00:31:11.049 --> 00:31:14.849 happen in thirty, forty five minutes with a mom on the sidewalking happen in 408 00:31:15.529 --> 00:31:18.359 thirty, forty, five days, I think it's been in this particular conversation 409 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.839 with this young lady. But we're out there on the sidewalk and we've built 410 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:27.000 relationship, we've listened, we've identified with their struggles and all that stuff. 411 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.200 Of Not just written them off, we not just justified it, we've not 412 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.230 written them off and we've done our best to build a relationship with them. 413 00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:38.789 Sometimes, if there's another another lady or even a man that's there on the 414 00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:42.390 sidewalk with you, you can kind of bring them into the conversation and your 415 00:31:42.430 --> 00:31:47.940 situation. Obviously you're going back and forth via text and phone calls with this 416 00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:49.660 young lady. Yeah, you brought edith in, brothers. I think you 417 00:31:49.700 --> 00:31:53.859 even brought my wife into the conversation early on and get conversation. She trusts 418 00:31:53.900 --> 00:31:57.220 you and because she trusts you, she trust the people that you trust. 419 00:31:57.339 --> 00:32:00.819 Maybe not as much as she trust you. Yeah, but at least you're 420 00:32:00.819 --> 00:32:05.970 able to bring those voices in because you built trust with her right and sometimes 421 00:32:06.569 --> 00:32:12.089 just speaking from a different perspective, speaking just a different voice. Sometimes changing 422 00:32:12.210 --> 00:32:16.559 things up can really help to, I guess, refresh the conversation. That's 423 00:32:16.599 --> 00:32:20.519 to have her thinking again about some of the things that you guys have already 424 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.279 talked about. And maybe, yeah, and they bring in different points that 425 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.440 maybe I can't bring in or didn't bring in. And so, yeah, 426 00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:30.430 that I think that fresh, fresh voice has is valuable. But, um, 427 00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:36.950 so the come in the full circle and maybe another a slightly just addition 428 00:32:37.109 --> 00:32:39.349 to what you said, but a slightly different tact when that question and is 429 00:32:39.470 --> 00:32:49.019 asked, which is where I eventually ended up, was reframing and refocusing and 430 00:32:49.299 --> 00:32:57.940 maybe kind of deflecting from the question. And I actually ended up saying I 431 00:32:58.180 --> 00:33:05.369 don't think that's the question that you necessarily should be asked. And that's a 432 00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:07.809 little different from what you said, because you're saying validate, and I totally 433 00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:13.960 agree with you. Validate the the feeling behind that question and helping to, 434 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.319 you know, to to direct that question into what the real question is. 435 00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:22.079 Yeah, but and but mine, mine was a little bit different. The 436 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:28.829 tactic that I took in the end was, I feel like the question you 437 00:33:28.990 --> 00:33:35.430 should be asking is is not will God forgive me or Will God love me, 438 00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:40.230 but is it what I am contemplating doing, what God would have me 439 00:33:40.390 --> 00:33:45.339 do. Is it right? Is it good? Is it healthy? Is 440 00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:52.420 it loving? Yeah, and and so she she did decide know and she 441 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:59.650 answered no to all to all of those things. And so all of those 442 00:33:59.690 --> 00:34:02.730 things all together came brought her to a point where right now she's back on 443 00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:07.049 track. I don't know if she'll stay there. She's young. Yeah, 444 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:12.400 and and I think I'm going to have a lot of struggles with her. 445 00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:17.400 But I did learn a lot through all of this and I was hoping that 446 00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:27.070 it would it would help others as well, but it in the end she 447 00:34:27.670 --> 00:34:31.909 did again choose life. I think today she is hopefully getting an ultrasound and 448 00:34:31.989 --> 00:34:39.579 looking at the baby. But the ongoing discussion with her will always have to 449 00:34:39.659 --> 00:34:44.219 be back to the Gospel, sure, and always back to the truth of 450 00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:49.219 what God says about about that precious life. Yeah, and about what it 451 00:34:49.340 --> 00:34:53.690 means for her to have asked Jesus to be her Lord. And then just 452 00:34:53.969 --> 00:35:02.170 pray that she makes the right decision and in and continues to know that even 453 00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:07.559 as a believer, especially as a young believer, we will all be tempted. 454 00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:14.320 There is there is no shame in the temptation, but they're there can 455 00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:20.320 be shame and how we respond. Yeah, absoluteation. Yeah, that's good. 456 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.510 Well with that. I think we're going to wrap this podcast up. 457 00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:25.869 Guys, whoop, it was a blessing to you. We hope that as 458 00:35:25.989 --> 00:35:30.469 we've talked through this and kind of just bounce things off of one another and 459 00:35:30.590 --> 00:35:35.739 shared our our experiences, that it's encourage you, and do always want to 460 00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:37.900 encourage you, guys, to take advantage of the things that we have, 461 00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:42.099 of able, like we mentioned in the first of this podcast that we have 462 00:35:42.179 --> 00:35:45.099 the sidewalks for life website. We have this article that will be out there 463 00:35:45.420 --> 00:35:49.539 in equipping articles on the sidewalks for life, sidewalks on number four, life, 464 00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:54.329 notto, calm and please reach out to us, Daniel at Love Life 465 00:35:54.369 --> 00:35:58.050 Dot Org, Vicky at Love Life Dot Org, if you have questions, 466 00:35:58.570 --> 00:36:00.849 if you have maybe things to add in, maybe you have an experience in 467 00:36:00.929 --> 00:36:04.719 this world, maybe you've been doing sidewalk countling for a long time and you 468 00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:07.400 can offer some wisdom to us. We don't believe that we have it all 469 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:10.800 together, so please reach out. Let us know what, when information that 470 00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:15.840 you have to share with us, and if you've got just some ideas for 471 00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:20.989 podcast episodes, we'd love to hear those ideas, but until next time, 472 00:36:21.349 --> 00:36:34.780 God bless give me our love for love. Give me our love for gratitude. 473 00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:45.659 I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some 474 00:36:46.570 --> you