What if they turn back to abortion?

0:00 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours and me, Lord, I am yours, and welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. In this episode we're going to talk about what to do if a mom that you thought chose life turned back on that decision and had an abortion. How do you minister to them? Stay tuned. I felt show passish, touch your heart. Use Me. Welcome back to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys joining us and we would appreciate if you guys would share this podcast with others. Let it be a blessing to them if it's a blessing to you. If it's not, then let us know. If these podcasts have not have been a blessing, we've covered subjects that have no application to you, then please reach out and let us know what subjects we can cover that could apply to you. That would help you. But we trust, because we've gotten some positive feedback, these episodes I have been a blessing and we're trying to answer questions that people have and we're trying to cover subjects they really come on our radar from our counselors, from our missionaries across the nation, from our local counselors from ourselves and our own experiences as things come up. Yeah, pretty much. You know, you get to write in an article and then we talk through it and then we do a podcast based on it. So that's what this is for. That's what the foundation of this podcast it is. It is. It's one of our missionaries that contacted

1:34 us and was in the situation we're going to talk about today and said, I just don't know how to handle this. Yeah, what should I do? Yeah, so jumping right into it. What is that situation? Well, she had counseled a woman who chose life. Okay, counseled her extensively for quite a it sounds like for a few weeks in fact, okay, and the woman was very committed to life, going to church and everything, and then all of a sudden chose to go have an abortion. Wow, and I don't think she told them until after she had had the abortion. And so that missionary there were two real issues. First of all, her own anger grief. She said she felt betrayed. She said she just wanted to condemn and scream. She was she was hurt, she was angry.

2:24 She knew that would not be the proper response. But but that was where she was emotionally. She had poured into this woman and on the other hand she was thinking, well, what now? Weird, where do you go now? Do you just stop contact with this woman? What's what should we do? Yes, a Gospel centered prolife ministry. Yeah, well, first and foremost, I'll say it might be easy to kind of look at the success stories and think that all the stories that we have our success stories. We talked about that, as we talked about, I think, dealing with discouragement and when success is not always successful. I think was some been a while back since we did that. We talked a little bit about this.

3:07 But this, this experience, is a reality that you're going to deal with. It is yes, if you're out there, babies are going to be saved, lives are going to be changed, praise God. But people, even if they choose life, if they don't surrender their lives to Jesus, m still our centers and they're still tempted to go back on that decision. So the fact that a woman chose life in that moment does not always solidify that choice right and it is not always mean that she's not going to turn back. That's why we talk so much about discipleship and getting them plugged into a mentor mentorship program, get them plugged into a church, because we want to surround them with the body of Christ and be really with them and walk with them so that when the devil comes with his lies, when the boyfriend who pressured her to have the abortion comes back around with his lies, then we can help squash those lives with the truth of God and remind them that we're here for them, remind them of their choice for life. Right.

4:04 And one of the things, another little addition to the story, was the woman then, if I did admit, yes, she had abhorted and kind of put on fake grief, it was like, but it was. It was sad, but it was really for the best, right. And so going back then, as though none of the counseling at all had it sunk in. No, this is not for the best. Killing your baby is not for the best and you knew that. So it was part of what that missionary that talked with me was grappling with. was there's no remorse. Yeah, and that added to the anger that there was fake remorse. Right, it was not more like the worldly sorrow. That's right, more like a human just regret. Yeah, I regret that. I I regret that I made a good decision for myself. It's like it is. It makes it sense R now. It didn't add a godly sorrow. There's not a true repentance. Yeah, now. And so we thought about this, we talked about this and we wrote an article about this. But but one of the things that I know is true, because I've done a little bit of research about it, is, well, a lot of research about it actually, is that post abortive women, the overwhelming initial response is relief. Yeah, and that can last a year, maybe even more. Yeah, and what's interesting is so many of the pro choice studies about abortion post abortion say

5:36 the women feel relief, they don't suffer from abortion. But if you look at those studies, most of them are very short term following the abortion. They're not long term follow up studies. And the longer that a woman is from that act, it seems that the Morse grows, the grief grows, the recognition of what they did Gross, especially if they had had no children and then they have children and there comes then crashing down on them what they really did, or if they come, like in my situation, from no faith to coming to faith and then the recognition of what you did. So what our missionary was asking is a very important question and I think that there are strategies, there are things we can and should do, but I think it's important to understand that dynamic. Most of these women really do just feel relief and it's going to be difficult to bring them past that to from well, the Bible talks about going from worldly grief to godly grief. Yeah, and to a repentance of these to nation. When we oversimplify things, and this is what I have seen in some of the pro abortion studies and statements that talk about women don't regret abortions, is they oversimplify human emotions. Yeah, and they imagine, or at least try to try to pretend, like it's true that you can't have relief and regret at the same time, but

7:10 you certainly can, and we know that right. Yeah, I mean even just simply like buyer's remorse is one of those things where you you have relief that you've bought this thing you've always wanted, then you got remorse because now, I gotta say for it's been that money right. So, just pro speaking, relief and regret can be can really happen to the same time, alongside of each other, and so I will agree with pro aborts to women feel relief. I won't say all women feel relief, because we know that not to be true. So then we see immediate regret that it's probably more the exception. Oh Yeah, I'm sure, but just to imagine then that I mean, I would say in one sense that woman who feels overwhelming regret probably feels a little bit of relief and maybe, by that same token, that woman that feels maybe your overwhelming relief, likely feels a little bit of regret. And I'll say that that has actually borne out in my experience and even what you're talking about with this young lady. It seems to be the case with her, because after all, it was just relief and abortion was no big deal. Why is she trying to justify it? I know, why is she? Why is she saying things like well, I know it was not the right decision, but it's for the best. Yeah, we know what she's doing is she's trying to convince herself that what she did was okay, that it wasn't wrong. And but even with that convincing like, we're not convinced. We know that it's wrong and they know that it's wrong, which is why you're saying something to the effect of God will forgive me anyway, because that's what you hear a lot of times to yes, God give me. It is it's not sin. What is he forgiving you?

8:41 Of? Exactly exactly. And so first at first of all, help that counselor to work through her feelings, which you're very valid. She has been betrayed in a sense. This this woman made some sort of, if not a promise, a kind of a commitment the councilor at port or her heart into that little baby, and so it is natural to to be hurt, to be angry, to feel like what happened? Why did you do this? But I don't think that's where I don't know how much of that is is a good idea to share with the mom. Maybe some, maybe some, would be okay to share with her. I've had those situations. I know you have to, and in a lot of ways you've poured your life out for them and you've dug for resources for them. You've they've Crod on your shoulder, not on your telephone. Right. They've they've got things that you've talked with him through. You've kind of built a relationship and a fringe, right, and it is, in one sense a betrayaler. It could be if you've built that relationship over a period of time, and I think to voice that is not a bad thing. Yeah, and really I think it could bring that that real sense of conviction that you know what. This is a big deal. Yeah, yeah, as and it of course it should not be all about the counselor it. It should be about the baby, which she did the the that, but it is. It is a

10:13 a and affront to the councilor who has has befriended her, and I know when it has happened to me, if I do have a relationship, I care with this Satan year old I've been counsel seen forever. She's due now in a month. I don't know what I'm going to talk about when rinch finally has a baby, because she's so of so many of my stories. But there were many, many periods of time when we'd been friends. Now I'd been counseling her hours and hours a day really for months, where then at like twenty weeks she said she was going to go aboard and my response was, I would call it righteous anger. At that point I I really gave very hard truths. Yeah, without really any hold spart, because I felt like, okay, I've been Nice, right, I've played the nice girl. Now it's found to lay down, you know, and I had said everything Ye, so many times and there comes the point that you just really need, I think, to to bring home the point what you're about to do, or what you have done, if you've gone through with it, is sin. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to say before we jump into some of the the guess in depth right this conversation, there's a couple of ways this could play out and particularly the angle we're coming from, because this was the experience of the missionary you're talking about. Is You built a long term relationship, like she chose life one day and then you've walked with her, you've followed up with her, you've tried to connect her with the mentor, you've built some kind of relationship and over the course of weeks

11:46 that she turns back. But it can also take place in the moment actually at the abortion center where you've poured everything out you could. You've taken them on board the Mobultra sound unit, or you've taken them to a pregnancy center and then you see the next day they've come right back to the abortion center. So we've had those situations as well. Yeah, so how do you deal with that? And when you see them, and I'm recalling a situation where this happened not terribly long ago, we poured out to this mother and we helped her when we showed her all the resources, all the things that were available to her. Every issue, situation she was facing, there was an answer for it, every reason to choose life. She chose life in that particular day and then a couple days later she comes back and actually I saw her going in and she actually hid behind one of the posts out in front of the latter abortion center. There's like these columns and behind that tie because from you, to hide from me. Yeah, she was ashamed.

12:39 She was a shame and she apparently went in with the abortion, went in and had the abortion and she's driving out of the abortion center after having had the abortion. How do you deal with that? So, yeah, be a long term thing, can be a short term thing. What do you say, because we want to have this balance between grace and truth that we talked about, right, and we in a sense, in our righteous indignation, we want to lay the hammer down and say, you wicked person, look what you did. Yeah, but also we know that's not going to be helpful, right, that's not going to be helpful at all for us just to kind of unleash all of our anger. But it's also not going to be helpful for us to just say it's no big deal, I'm sorry, you made that. Mistakes and yeah, who what is helpful anyway?

13:26 Don't say that just with this right off. Don't say that God loves you anyway, because then you've just made an allowance for sin. Is that true? You can say a true thing in a wrong time and it be taken completely in the direction Gott never intended it. Right. So, of course the best place, in my opinion, to go to answers, because I wrestled with this. We all wrestle with this. It's not easy, and don't don't get me wrong. Even as we give you these pointers, it doesn't make it easy. It's not easy, right, but I I went to the Bible and and thought, okay, is there any situation in the Bible where someone who is supposedly doing the right thing, a righteous human being, who turns to sin then letting down all those around him? Yeah, and then someone confronts him, and I thought of the story of David and Beth Sheeba. Sure, and Nathan. Yeah, Nathan was amazing in and how he confronted David in in the aftermath of the sin with with Beth Sheeba and the murder of Beth Sheeba's husband. You're Riah. So what? Basically, what? What at this isn't, by the way, Second Samuel Twelve.

14:41 Yes, for all of you. That maybe when I wasn't going to read the whole thing, although maybe we should. But Nay. Then tells David he knows what's happened with Best Sheba and Bath Sheba is now pregnant with David's child and Uriah, the husband of Beth Sheba, has been put in the front line so that he will be killed on purpose by David to cover the sin. And then David Takes Best Sheba into his home, has his wife. And so Nathan is outraged and he the way he deals with it is he tells us a story. Yeah, to David. Great story about a poor man who owns one lamb, I think. Yeah, and the family pet lamb, family pet lamb. It was very precious and I can't remember who the person power was. was he the king, someone that was a rich man, a rich man man? Yeah, far from him.

15:41 And Kay in a position of power. Yeah, and he takes the poor man who's in a position of he was a rich guy. He didn't need the lamb, but he took the poor man's lamb. Yeah, he had a visitor come, even though he had lambs of his own. And Chris, the analogy is that near David had plenty of it hit so many whites, all right and all that. Why would you go and take someone else's right? So he tells his story. Yeah, and doesn't say anything about you know, doesn't even use that the rich man was a king or something to make it real obvious. He just tells the story and David is outraged, HMM and and and says that this rich man must be severely punished.

16:21 How could he do this? How can we take from the poor guy who had just this one little lamb? How could he take that when he had so much and Nathan then says that man is you. Yeah, and that was the finger points the thing, that man is you. Doesn't, you know, pour out anger or name calling, just that simple statement that man is you, yeah, and that convicts David powerfullet. So Nathan used a principle that Jesus uses and I think we could use frequently, and I think we do actually in ministry, and that is the power of story. Yeah, and parallel stories and allergies. He's yeah, those are so powerful.

17:14 Now we might not be able to come up with that. I mean this was brilliant. I should I thought when Nathan came up with it was inspired by the Lord, inspired by God. So we you know, yes, I can we be inspired by God and dealing with women, I'm of course we can, but there are certainly testimonies that that we can share that maybe can help that woman to recognize, yeah, what she has done, the depth of what she has done, maybe further humanizing and personalizee. Maybe what that baby went through or what that baby has missed to out on. Yeah, absolutely, and I think it given the proper scenario, sharing this very story, yeah, with a mom, yeah, who has had an abortion and has not felt the conviction of it. Yeah, and then going right to Psalm fifty one, which I believe is the outflow of this story of David, of his brokenness and contrition before the Lord for his sin. When Nathan points to finger and says that guy is you right right, David breaks down in repentance and Psalm fifty one, yes, can read that, but I believe that's David's Song of repentance to God. You're right at you and you alone of a sin and none one is evil in your side. That's what he says in some fifty one. Yeah, and and talk going through that psalm with a mom and helping her to recognize she clearly sinned against the child, but ultimately that sin was against God himself. Yeah, and in

18:44 rebellion, and I think that is the important thing that we're aiming at when we're looking for because what are we looking for? We're looking for repentance, right. We're not just looking for sorrow, we're not just looking for tears. Listen, people crowed tears for all kinds of things, but we're looking for godly sorrow. We're looking for what it says in Psalm fifty one, what David said. Yeah, is it. They acknowledge that they send against God, and I think it's important for us in these conversations. Then we can do it graciously. I don't know that we. You have to be out of this the Holy Spirit. You have to do the best you can to discern. I can't give you an exact formula of when you lay down the hammer or anything like that. Yeah, let the scripture do its work.

19:27 Share them, share with them Psalm fifty one. If they're coming back to you for whatever reason, you have to ask yourself if this young lady had an abortion and it was no big deal and she's wanting to move on with her life, why is she even reaching back out to the counsel right right, why is she even responding? Because you'd think she would just block her and we some of them did. What have some of them, dude? Some of them do do that. So to me, I think either divinely inspired or just inspired by our own conviction and look grasping for something, she reads back out to this this counselor back out of this missionary. But I think in those situations, shoot the scripture over to him. We just please read Psalm fifty one. That's all. I'm asking for you, you know. Yeah, just let the scripture do it's work. You don't have to be the bad guy. Let us let the scripture be the good guy that brings the bad, the the want say the bad truth, but the the reality of their accountability to God, and let let the Holy Spirit do his job. Right. I think in counseling counselors that go through that, it would be good to help them to to be able to state what is their hope, yeah, of what they are going to achieve with this woman at this point. Right. And so it's, you know, it's a Nathan's hope was ultimately restoration, yeah, of David Back to God. But he then he did go on in that story about he did tell him there are consequences. You will not die. Yeah, you will not die,

21:02 but the baby will. Yeah, he was very honest about that. And Yeah, I think what he's saying there is that, basically he's helping David to understand. I think this is part of what broke David Down, right, is your sin has an effect on other people. Do you understand that your sin just affected an innocent person? Now we can get into the theological discussion about I mean God not into killing babies. So how does that work? The God caus this baby to die? Or was there some sickness and the devil do it and God allow listen, I don't want to get into all of that less maybe for another podcast, yeah, or for another whole somebody else to do that podcast and episode about that. But the fact is David was, in some measure at least, a soft hearted guy and David was a guy after justice. I mean, look at the story of David and Goliath. He comes out on the battlefield there and here's this this goliath mocking the children of God and mocking God himself, and David's like, because he's a man that wants justice, who's doing something about this uncircumcised Philistine?

22:08 Right, this, this is unjust. He speaking against the Living God. Is there not a cause? Right? And so Nathan and God Rue. Nathan plays on that, your sense of justice, and you can play on that with these mothers and help them to understand that what they've done is an unjust thing. They just took the life of another human being. Yeah, they're guilty before God for it. Well, as you were saying that, and actually it didn't even occur to me, which is kind of crazy till you said that. But this is exactly a perfect story, because the result of the sin of David and well, best she but, but best she but was possibly forced into it, but of David, was a baby dies.

22:53 Yeah, that was the consequence, and that's exactly what happened in an abortion. The sins of the mother and the father's usually has led to the death of an innocent human being. Yeah, so it might be a really, really good story to share with them. Yeah, absolutely, but now we'll say this that I don't I don't know that you talked about this in this article necessarily, but I do want to talk just for a second to the counselor and to them emotionally. Yeah, because what can happen in those situations, and I'm sure that's what happened with our missionary that you're talking about. I know it's happened to you. To happen to me, it's happen everyone who's been involved in these kind of situations where you you a mom has chosen life, praise God, things are moving forward and she turns back on it. You Begin to beat yourself up and the devil begins to play tricks in your mind. All you should have did this, you shouldn't have did that, you should have said this, you should have said that you're not good enough to be out there, because if you were, they wouldn't have went back on their decision for life or you whatever. You didn't use the right scripture. You did what? Who knows? There's lies come across your your mind and in your heart, and the whole idea and the whole intention, I believe, from the devil is to discourage you and to get you off of mission right, right. So I just want to encourage you, guys who listen. If you're out there, you're probably going to deal with this at some point and if you've already dealt with this, would encourage you.

24:22 You can never say everything just right, you can never do everything just right. We live in a fallen world where fallen human beings. So to try to put a weight on yourself that God doesn't put, because God doesn't put the weight on you, the burden on you to say everything exactly right all the time. What does God put on us? He puts on us so seeds and water seats. That's right. Plant seeds, that's that's the best you can do. You literally cannot plant a seed and force that seed to come out of the ground right. That's, I believe, why the analogies there in scripture that we're planting seats, because there's nothing you can do to make that seed grow. Yep, except for putting water on it. But you even if you put water on it's no promise it's going to grow.

25:03 Right, it's up to that seed and it's up to the Lord. So we have to leave these situations in the hands of the Lord. We have to say, okay, I've done my due diligence, I've done the best I can. Could you have said things better? Sure, you always can. In our you know, you've been doing this or eight years. I've been doing this for fifteen years. I still from time to time go back and even conversations where a mom has chosen life, I'll go back and think, man, why did I say that? I should have said this, and and try to beat myself up on what I did and what I didn't do. Don't do that, guys. Don't beat yourself up. Just trust the Lord ultimately, again your planning seeds, trust the Lord that he'll give the increase and that the words that you said, even though she didn't choose life on that particular day. Maybe she turned back on her decision for life on that particular day, but down the road those seeds that you've sewn and the truth that you've spoken, God's word, doesn't return void, it's gonna have some kind of effect. It will and and that goes for not only the initial discussions that you had where she chose life, that you're planning seat, but the same is true with the discussions you're going to have her after she has aborted and you're trying to figure out what to say again.

26:17 It's going to be difficult and you may not say everything perfectly, but just remember you are planting seats. And I think I may have mentioned this recently in one of our podcast recently, and it did just happen just to I think it was last week, maybe the week before, where a mom had abhorted. She every okay, I'm not sure I've talked about this, but one of our counselor's, Mary Beth, had poured in to this mom and the mom had even gone to the pregnancy resource center that works with us. She had seen her baby, she she had gotten all the resources. She was excited. She had chosen life and then turned around and aborted. And Mary Beth beat herself up. Yeah, the the sonographer at help, Monroe beat herself up. They all, they all fell. Oh, what could we have done when we do wrong? Those, you know, all that stuff, devastated. Yeah, and that mom showed up again just a week ago, two weeks ago, and looking for us because she remembered. She's pregnant again, in an unplanned pregnancy. Again, again abortion, vulnerable.

27:27 Yeah, but this time she said I'm going to let you help me and she expected anger. Yeah, and and the same sonographer, Kelly, was the one that happened to be there. Yeah, the day that she returned and Kelly just poured love into her, showed her her baby. I was the counselor, and she said, thank you so much for forgiving me a second chance. So she had been convicted from even though she had gone back and aborted, the relationship that was established in the seats that were planted brought her back to us with the next pregnancy. Yeah, and and I guess that's a testimony to do exactly exactly what I'm talking about, exactly. Yeah, but even given that scenario. She received love. Right, but when we say that, most people are thinking she received love, that means we were just nice to her. Okay, now I want to tell you what she received. So, because that is Acun't know what your that's what modern Christians being. So they're when when they say we need to speak the truth and love. Right. What? What? Most Modern Christians just be nice.

28:42 Let's just be nicey right, and listen Jesus in a lot of ways. I'm sharing this before we started the pod. Guess, yeah, Jesus was not nice. But we ask ourselves, did Jesus love the Pharisees? He loved them with a with a deep love. He wept over Jerusalem, in their obstinates and and he loved them and he spoke the truth to them. Now, yeah, I'm not saying these women are Pharisees, but what I am saying is that to show love is not always to be nice, nicey Nice, but it is to show the kindness of the Lord which leads us to repentance and to bring the truth to bear, like right, reality. What they've done? So right. So, so, when she when she came on and I didn't hear about the prior abortion till near the end of the session. So clearly she was not proud of it, not not happy about it, knew knew it was sin and when she revealed that, then I'm up for sharing the Gospel. It's kind of they've done the medical stuff, I've shared the resources. Made sure she knew that no matter where she stood with God, it didn't affect whether we would help her. But shared the Gospel and and she had made a common along the lines of at that time I had to do what I did. Yeah, with the abortion.

30:00 So her heart had not yet been changed really regarding the sin of what she had done. And that was the first thing that I talked about then before sharing the Gospel, was the humanity of that baby, all the things the baby would never know and some pretty hard truths. I spoke it kindly, with the tone of voice that wasn't angry, but but I wanted her to I wanted her to come to say it was wrong. You're right, it was sin against against that baby and against God. And she did and she ultimately, I can't remember. There was a whole slew of women, fortunately during that time period that came to the Lord and I can't remember if she was one of them. I think she was, but she she clearly left with a greater understanding of the sin of abortion. Right, and when I when I said, no matter what you face in the future, if you were to have an unplaying pregnancy, first of all you shouldn't because you're not going to have sex outside of merit anymore. Right. But but if you were, is is abortion and ever a valid option? And she said now, yeah, no, and she she was very sorrowful. Yeah, at that point, when we talk about healing and when we talk about restoration and we we talked about salvation, we haven't understand that ultimately, healing,

31:32 and we're going to talk about that in just a second, the steps to healing. Yeah, healing doesn't happen to people that don't realize that they're not healed. Right, they don't. They need healing. It's like sack. You Know Ray Comfort, who we use his model of sharing the Gospel, which is, I believe, the Biblical model of in the Gospel, which is Jesus, is way of sharing the gospel, sharing the reality of why he came. Yeah, and you, Ray Comfort talks about if you go into the doctor's office and you know the doctor doesn't talk about you know you've got blue spots on your face and you've got horns grown out of your head, and the doctor talks about everything else but those symptoms that you have outwardly and doesn't talk about the actual problem, then he's not doing you any good.

32:16 Right. The doctor has to talk about the symptoms of sickness. He has to talk about also the consequences of not dealing with this sickness. So if you have this sickness with blue spots on your face and horns grind your head, that's not the example that ray comfort gives, but it's something that to that effect. Yeah, if you show if you continue in this with this disease and don't take this cure, people likely to take the cure. And so that's why we talk about sharing the Gospel, but before that, sharing the law. Right, that's really sharing the truth that you're sick and you need a healer. Yeah, and that healer is Jesus. You're sick and you need a physician. His name is Jesus, and they're not going to get the idea why they need that. In in your little doctor analogy, it'd be like the doctor going up to him and not talking about the disease at all and just saying, let me cut open your stomach to pause, yeah, to play your intestines and remove a portion of them. You're like, what know, because you have no idea that there is something on your intestine that is going to kill you, that cancer, whatever, and so you can't bring the remedy before they know there's an illness. Yeah, there's some sickness, there's and that sickness is sin. Yeah, and especially when we're dealing with a woman that's had an abortion. Right, if we talk about everything else we don't talk about abortion, then we're not talking about the thing that, ultimately, before God, brings our guilt. Right.

33:39 That's why she's come to us and that's why we've connected with her in light of her pregnancy, because it's what we're out there doing. We're talking about reaching out to women who are bringing going into the passion center. Right. So, if we talk about everything else but that abortion, then we're like a doctor that's talking about everything else but that cancer that he can see very plainly is going to destroy that person's life. Yeah, and the same is true of sexual impurity. Is is you can't just dance around that issue when you're dealing with a women coming for an abortion because, as most of them are in some sort of sexual sin. Yeah, and if you don't address that, then they'll just be back again. That is a major part of why people are showing up for abortions. They and so that it sets outside of marriage wasn't a thing, then abortion would not be a thing. Yeah, I mean pretty much, if you we go statistics, the overwhelming majority of people that come to abortion centers or committing sexual sin, right. Yeah, yeah, so let's talk about these steps to healing. Yeah, yeah, the first step, like we talked about, is the conviction of sin.

34:46 Yeah, it's matter of fact. That's what the Bible says the Holy Spirit, that's what his job is. Jesus says that the spirit comes to convict the World Concerning Sin, righteousness and judgment. Was the Holy Spirit doing? For the Christian he's bringing comfort, but for the center, for the world, he's bringing the conviction of sin to conduct the World Concerning Sin and righteousness and judgment. So just this idea that we need to to dance around the issue of abortion, to we need to be nice and not talk about it is a false notion. We need to be plain, we need to be kind. That is a fruit of the spirit. By the way, niceness is not a fruit of the spirit. It's kind of like a worldly perversion of of kindness, I think. And kindness sometimes leads to us being a little forthright and a little outwardly might appears being kind of mean or snarky or whatever. It's not our motivation. Motivation is kindness. We want to be kind to them by telling them you got cancer right and in this situation, your sin, the cancer is abortion. When you do with that, and we need to really plainly lay it out, why is abortion sin?

35:58 It's not sin because it's a it's a bad medical decision, you know. It's not sin just because the doctors that do it or bad people. That's true, but it's not just sin because of that. It's sin because that baby is made in God's image, loved and known by him, and that baby has been mercially, mercilessly killed by what you did, by your involvement in the abortion of your son or your daughter, and I think that's important for them to know, very important, and I love how you stated it. I hear all the time out there. Please stop. You're making her feel bad, right, and my response is that's good, because someone's killing another person, they should feel bad, should feel back. That's all always my response. She should feel bad. What she's doing is evil, wrong, sinful, against God, against that child, even against yourself, because that's not what a woman is designed to do and it will destroy a part of her to do that. So conviction of sin. Yeah, that's number one. Right. Yeah, and how do we bring the conviction of sin?

37:01 Just, very simply, we like we shared Psalm fifty one. That's a good way to start. Shures a great start, scripture laying out the the humanity, the biblical case of the humanity of that baby. Likely, if she's already broken in some sense, there's no sense in adding insult to injury. So if she's already weep and she's already ball and she's already acknowledged her sin, likely the holy spirits already done that and all you've got to do is just, you know, a few maybe statements that can kind of reiterate the holy spirits conviction. If he's done that work again, it's his job to do that, then we don't need to add more to that. But we do need to be sure that there's a true conviction of sin and not just like a worldly sorrow like we talked about. And just you know, I'm sorry I disappointed you, because that can happen sometimes, where they're sad because not because they offended God, but because they disappointed you, and you were really nice to them. You're really kind to them. It was one here. That A lot. Yeah, that's what their true sorrow is.

37:59 There was a in conviction of sin. There was a man today who stopped who had an abortion decade ago and he was asking me, you know, what was going on here, and he he said that he had, you know, been a part of an abortion many years ago and that ultimately they broke up and then she committed suicide. Oh well, and and he said not a day goes by that I don't think of it, but I'm grateful that I never really pushed her to the abortion. We both agreed to it. Yeah, and I console you'd say, you know, I I I told him my story and I said I really you've carried this burden for decades. You will never release this burden until you recognize that abortion, the abortion, was wrong, it was it was sin. It was sin against a holy God. But but God does long to heal you. But that's the first step in healing. I just came right out and said that is the first step in healing you. You have to understand what you did was wrong. And he was very gracious. He actually did listen to the whole thing. He didn't come to the Lord or anything. I shared the whole Gospel, but but he did thank me and he took attract a little book of John which he said he would read. But that so yet. Just being I think conviction of sin scripture is great, but sometimes just coming right out and saying it is is important. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and

39:32 so I want to kind of knock through these as quick as we can because we're sort of running out of time recording this. But when we get to this last part of the podcast. Okay, so the steps of healing, of conviction of sin, sorrow for sin and be sorry, not just that they were caught in their sin but they've sent against God. Yeah, repentance. Now, repentance is not just sorrow. Repentance is actually turning away from sin. Yeah, turning away happens in the heart, also happens with our hands, our feet. All that right. Yeah, calling out to God for forgiveness and healing. Now, I want you to touch on that real quick because we when we share the Gospel, whether it's a mom who's chosen life for her baby or even a mom who's had an abortion, we do aim for a some might call it like an invitation sinners prayer. We're not trying to get them to pray after me, but talk a little bit about that. Well, in terms of out I think when when David calls out insign fifty one, he's calling out to God. He has repented and he's saying God, cleanse me, make me clean again, restore me to a right relationship with you. And and so calling out to God for forgiveness and healing means that you have recognize what you've done, you have turned from what you've done and you truly want a bestored relationship with God. You recognize that it has been disrupted by your sin. And this is the point we make such a big deal about. Well, you don't mention forgiveness too soon.

41:05 Yeah, but there is a point at which forgiveness is to know that they can be forgiven, but forgiven does come with a price. I mean forgiveness is is, is not unconditional. Yeah, forgiveness must be preceded by repentance. And you know the I've I've really thought a lot about a forgiveness and one of the verses that is quoted all the time to Christians. We years forgiving people. We need to be a forgiving people, and they say forgive. Well, Jesus has forgive as the Lord forgave you, as God forgave you. But God's forgiveness, His forgiveness, is offered to all through the cross. I mean it's open to all, but it's never, never, we're never reconciled to God until there is repentance. Yeah, and then the forgiveness is is extended. Yeah, absolutely. So is that? Am I getting where you wanted me to go with that? Or is there to yeah, well, just in also in these conversations, getting them to call in the name of the Lord and I think getting them if you're in a one on one conversation. Well, they've acknowledge their sin. Yeah, you're repentant.

42:25 Right, they're acknowledging their sin, their sorrow for there, their sorrow for it, and then they're voicing and I never want to do this again. That's that's a part of repentance. Now repentance is borne out not just in the moment but also in how we live. Right, the life of repentance. You're moving over into the next point about submitting one's life fully to Jesus. Right, if, if, if you truly want to know the freedom of forgiveness, that requires submitting your life to the Lord. Yeah, if you're not calling upon Jesus as Lord, you will never know what it means to be forgiven, to have that burden of your guilt lifted. But as soon as you do, your sins, which were scarlet, are made white as snow. His blood washes away. Yeah, your sin and that bird and that that overwhelming bird, and that guilt, that self condemnation and self hatred, that's removed. The consequences are not not all like in David's case, he was forgiven. Nathan tells him God will forgive you, you are it's got's not going to kill. You are forgiven, but the baby's going to die. There is still a consequence and and I think that's important for people who are experiencing forgiveness to remember that that does not mean that God removes the result of your sin right in. Sometimes he does, but quite frankly, most of the time I don't think he does. Most of the

44:00 time you do live with the that's not really the point, right. The point is that I've offended God, right, I'm repenting to him and whatever consequences, maybe they that's what they are. Yeah, that, to me shows a truly repentant heart. Yeah, but kind of what I was getting at was getting them to right there in front of you, if there's this genuine repentance, getting them to call the name of the Lord Right there, rather than to say and do it when you get home. I think that personal accountability. What your standing right there now, do shy away from repeat after me. All right, say this after me. I shout away from that because anyways, well, you know, if that's genuine, yeah, if you're repeating after somebody calling the name of the Lord. Yeah, you know, like you've shared before. I'll tell him it can be as sloppy as you as you wanted to be. Ain't got to be in perfect King James English or anything like that. Just pray to the Lord, Confess your sin to him and ask him to save you. Yep, and in your own words, and oftentimes I have often had them say, oh, I can't do that, I'll just can I just say it in my head?

45:02 And I say, well, read this first. WHAT IS ROMANCE? Ten Nine, say and and it says proclaim with your mouth. Yeah. So I think the reason for that God never makes mistakes. I think that's purposeful. The reason is if you say it out loud, in front of witnesses, even, but even if you're alone in a room, but you're saying it out loud to God, there is a that is a commitment. Yeah, that's and your Oh, your, you are not being worried about your image or selfconsciousness. You're speaking to God. Yeah, and yeah, I think that's powerful. Yeah, and I think that kind of leads to the next thing here. This is steps to healing, submitting to the authority of a local church. I think within that includes any local church I'm going to send somebody to, is going to include them getting baptized, right. Yeah, and that baptism. I don't believe in Baptismal regeneration, that getting baptized as what saves you. It's repentance and faith in Jesus, calling on the name of the Lord that saves people. Yeah, but baptism is a public declaration, like you talked about. You're letting everybody know now I'm submitted to Jesus. Yeah, and we've seen this. I've actually had a story, I think we shared on the podcast before. That happened not too long ago down in southern California, right over in southern California. That was awesome.

46:17 Well, that young lady was chose life for a baby, surrender her life to Jesus. Now, she was not repenting of an abortion, but she was baptized right, and so that's that's an awesome story. But even these women who do end up giving theirselves over to the lies of the enemy and have an abortion, when they repent put their lives in Jesus hands, get baptized. This this public declaration that I'm that's my old life has been buried with Christ right my new life. I'm raised out of the waters of baptism to new life, symbolic of their new life with him, and I think that's included in the authority of the local church. Being in a local church helps keep that decision for Jesus solidified and helps them stay encouraged and stake accountable.

47:01 Right and be really surrounded by other believers who are you know, help them through their struggles and all that. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's critical. So that in and also it's in the local church where you're going to be discipled. Yeah, God, God, will meet you where you are. Yeah, but he doesn't want us to stay where we are. I know you've heard that. A lot of people say that and and that's very true. So you're you know, that's where, that's what God instituted as the way in which we will be discipled and grows in a family of believers in the local church. Yeah. So, yeah, that's really important. And then the final step, I think, in in true healing, is to now use what has happened to you, the the sin and how it was redeemed, and use it to help others. Yeah, absolutely, and that's why there's so many of our concerts who are posted to board if they really know that that is a really important part of we don't do it for healing, but that's kind of the bonus. You have absolutely of what happens if you're out there helping others through. And I told that that man that stopped today. I said, this is why we're out here because we know. We know what we've done, we know it's wrong, we know the horrible consequences and part of that healing process is to go and try to help others not to do yeah, we did well. It's just, practically speaking, it's loving your neighbor, right, it's loving your neighbor as yourself if you've been down a destructive path. Yeah, and you like, for example, for myself, being involved in drugs, give myself to that.

48:30 If I see someone getting involved in that, I'm going to warn them of the consequences and say God, deliver me from that and I'll promise you he don't want you to be involved in that stuff. Right. So it's just plain just loving our neighbor as ourselves, speaking the truth to people who ultimately going to be involved in a sinful and destructive things. Yeah. Yeah, and also, this is one of the reasons why in our applications and things, when we have people that come on board and get our training, our sidewalk training, we asked the question of about do they have abortion in their past? We ask that question, not because we want to probe deeply into their past or anything like that, but we ask that question. It's kind of yes or no question. Have you had an abortion in your past, and then we ask a qualifier. If you say yes, then have you gotten healing and what does that healing been? Because we want people to Minister from a place of healing rather than the place of hurting, because you can't give what you don't have. And so this is just for those of you who are counselors on the sidewalk where you underlove life or out there under your church or whatever. If you haven't gotten healing from a past abortion, you should seek that out. You should see restored life as a ministry that we work with that's under love life's umbrella. Stephanie Ronhart's wonderful. She'll get you connected and you can. I think it's love life that orgs last restored life.

49:49 Either way, you can search, you can google search that, but that that's kind of a side note that if you have an abortion in your past, seek out that healing. Just make sure you come to a place of healing and restoration so you can minister out of that. That's right. And there's online healing resources if you know that's more convenient, or just all that you're able to do. But something, something, is important. Getting some sort of healing is important. Yeah, absolutely. So, just kind of ending out this episode of the PODCAST, you have here in the article the flow of the conversation right. So can you kind of just knock through that as quick as possible? Okay, so a great way to just introduce it's just saying, how are you doing? Yeah, how are you doing, and that's when she'll give those comments that you can piggyback off of.

50:37 You know, well, I know it was wrong, but you know, I'm moving on. I will often hear that I'm I know, I need to just move on. I hear that almost every time. And so, because I hear that so frequently and it's a great comment, because it's such a great one, to easily then say, you know, you can't move on without acknowledging what has truly happened, and that's how you go into the story of or the the conviction of sin. Yeah, and you know, similar to what Nathan did with David, maybe mentioning some verses that talk about the sanctity of life and and why do you call me Lord Lord and not do what I say? Anything that is going to help her to recognize that what she did was was wrong, was indeed sin, and then oftentimes there will start to be some level of remorse and in some women, some women, great remorse, and then you can start to talk about what true repentance looks like and tell them that there is forgiveness. Yeah, Great Opportunity then to share the Gospel, if you haven't already share it again. If you've shared it once and then they went and aborted, I would say it didn't take words. I would question. I would go back to the section of Romans ten nine. Jesus is Lord, and I will ask them was he lord? Was He Lord when you were in there taking the life of your own son or daughter? And I will say it bluntly like that, and

52:09 oftentimes I'll say no, he wasn't. And so really revisiting what that means. If Jesus is Lord, what that means, what does your change life look like then? And then talking about the healing post aboard of programs, linking her with them if you if possible. I want to reiterate what we mentioned early on, but it's very important. I have heard many people say the advice in when you're dealing with a woman who chose life inish lily and now has turned back to abortion. Is just show her the love of Jesus, and I say no that I I think that that probably does damage.

52:50 In fact, I would say yes, but just what I talked about earlier, sharing her the love of Jesus is not just be nice to her, okay, but the love of Jesus is to bring like, okay, okay, Jesus would be the physician that when you walk in with blue spots on your face and in a horn gris how your head because you have some kind of weird disease, he's going to point that out because he loves you. Right. So showing them the love of Jesus is talking about the thing. That's it's obvious, right. That's right. Yeah, so a lot of times she showing the love of Jesus. Again, people are saying just be nice, talk about everything, but that talk about, you know, think about his comfort, just comforting. Now I walk into the physicians room and to the or the doctor walks into the room, you're sitting there on the on the little bad thing, and he just talks about how much how great you are, he talks about how much he loves you. And yet meanwhile you got all this blues, these blue spots on your frience and a horn grown out of your head, and he doesn't talk about the thing that's going to cause you great harm. Right, right. So just just comforting with with Jesus loves you and and yeah, just go ahead and move on that.

54:00 That's not what we're calling to do. We Are we are called to speak, speak truth in in a loving manner. And and so the remember the goal. Remember the goal. It is for not only to help them recognize their sin just for the purpose of recognizing sin, but the goal is that they would be restored and reconciled to God. Yeah, that is the ultimate goal. And and in you know, do whatever you need to do, truthfully and lovingly, to bring them to an acknowledgement that they need God know that they have walked away from him in the act of abortion. Yeah, absolutely good stuff. Yeah, I think. And it's all put into an article. Yeah, that will be on the sidewalks for life website.

54:52 I have tried to put the links of these articles out as the podcast of going out, but I'm not always been able to do do that. So if the link is not in the show notes of the PODCAST, go to sidewalks for lifecom search, post abortive, whatever words would bring this up. You can do it in search pretty easily and find out any articles that have to do with that. And so hopefully you guys will be able to get a hold of this article, because there's a lot in this article that we didn't cover because we kind of ran out of time and we think it would be a blessing to you. So please take advantage of that. Read the article, share the article, reach out to us, like we say in the beginning. You know we want you to share this podcast. Want you to let us know if there are other things you'd like for us to talk about, subjects you'd like for us to cover. Daniel, Love Life Dot Org. You reach her, Vicky, at Love Life Dot Org. We love to hear from you, but until next time, God bless God that Y'all give me our love for love. Give me our love for gratitude.

55:57 I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you