Should We Use The Word Murder To Describe Abortion?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:03.040 You can yell all you want, you can use all the words you want, 2 00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:06.240 if the holy, Holy Spirit doesn't convict that woman and she doesn't respond 3 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:09.720 to the conviction, she's going to walk in there and kill her child. 4 00:00:09.960 --> 00:00:16.160 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me Lord, 5 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.519 I am yours, I am yours. I'm welcome to the Gospel Center 6 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:27.000 Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designed to equip, encourage and challenge you in 7 00:00:27.039 --> 00:00:31.079 pro life ministry, and always with a focus on the Gospel. Stay tuned. 8 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:44.280 I felt show passish, touch your heart. Use Me. Welcome back 9 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:48.479 to the Gospel Centered Prolife podcast. Appreciate you guys joining us. My name 10 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:53.000 is Daniel Parks. I serve as the West Coast Regional Shepherd for love life. 11 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:57.600 Actually am located here in Charlotte, though, and I'm joined as always, 12 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:02.079 about Vicki Cassi Org. Hey everyone, and Vicky Cassi Org is our 13 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:07.040 director of sidewalk training now, so she does a lot of training people, 14 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:12.879 actually nationally. She's taking several trips around the country and probably will take quite 15 00:01:12.879 --> 00:01:18.640 a few more and helping the sidewalk teams get more healthy and just given some 16 00:01:18.680 --> 00:01:23.120 tips and encouragement to those who are serving on the sidewalks in our various cities 17 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.760 under love life. We produce this podcast for you guys, our love life 18 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.439 teams, but also for others who are maybe not a part of of life 19 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:33.959 but are involved in sidewalk out reach ministry. We do this to encourage you 20 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:40.079 guys, to give you some principles, some tips, some scripture. We 21 00:01:40.159 --> 00:01:42.400 want to be based in the Gospel. We are based in the Gospel and 22 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:48.519 the word of God and just take some of what we have learned and so 23 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.480 it into you, guess. We hope that this podcast does that for you, 24 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.200 guess. So introduce our topic real quick, Viki. Well, in 25 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:57.920 in short, it's whether we should use the word murder or not, okay, 26 00:01:57.959 --> 00:02:00.799 and how to use the word murder if we decide we should, while 27 00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:05.280 we're on the sidewalk of a of an abortion center. There are so many 28 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:10.719 differing opinions on this and people often feel very strongly about this sure whether they 29 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:15.159 should use that word or not. So I really thought we should address it 30 00:02:15.199 --> 00:02:22.120 head on. Yeah, because I think our heart as a ministry is to 31 00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:28.639 encourage women to engage with us, to talk with us, and so what 32 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:32.919 we do there, the words we use the the things we say, our 33 00:02:32.960 --> 00:02:42.479 demeanor, our tone are really all directed towards bringing the woman to come and 34 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.479 talk with us. Yeah, and there are definitely things that we have observed 35 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:53.319 over the many years we've done this that decrease the likelihood that the woman is 36 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:57.080 going to come talk with us. We want to share the Gospel, we 37 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:02.439 want to ultimately hopefully be used to save that child's life, the unborn baby's 38 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:07.560 life, and if the woman isn't willing to engage with us, we think 39 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:14.120 it's less likely they're going to make a choice for life and make a choice 40 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:19.439 that will allow them to continue talking with us where we can really express the 41 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:22.840 truth of the Gospel in its fullness. Yeah, and this kind of speaks 42 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.639 to this dynamic that I spoke about some time ago, I've probably touched right 43 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:30.280 a couple of times, and that we're not just out there to deliver information, 44 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:34.680 but we're out there to start a conversation. We're not out there appealing 45 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:38.439 to the powers that be. That's why we often say that sidewalk out reaches 46 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:43.240 not protesting. We're not picketing abortion centers. We're not protesting at abortion centers. 47 00:03:43.240 --> 00:03:46.159 Protesting and picketing are not wrong, they're not bad, but protesting and 48 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:50.639 picketing is appealing to the powers that be, kind of the larger public. 49 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.800 This is wrong. We should do something about it. I can see that 50 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.560 happening, you know, in front of a front of the Supreme Court or 51 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.599 whatever. Right, right, and it certainly could happen in front of an 52 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:03.879 abortion center. But it's just to me not the best mode of operation there, 53 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.719 because we're not just there to appeal to the powers that be. Were 54 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:12.199 there to appeal to those individual mothers. We do want to deliver information, 55 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:15.439 right, but it's not just delivering information, not just putting out kind of 56 00:04:15.480 --> 00:04:19.240 oneliner phrases, even though oneliner phrases are good. We train people to do 57 00:04:19.279 --> 00:04:24.240 that, right, but those oneliner phrases should be to the end. The 58 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:28.639 end result would be to have a conversation with that mom not just deliver information 59 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:32.040 to her. Right now, I think we have to start, because we 60 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:38.560 are biblically based. Like we don't I'm not just looking to please the women 61 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.680 going into the abortion center. I'm not just looking to please people that are 62 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.879 looking in our ministry to thank you guys, say mean things or whatever. 63 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:47.839 I want to please the Lord. I want to honored, Yesus and everything 64 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:54.319 that I do. And so, you know, looking at the idea of 65 00:04:54.360 --> 00:05:01.439 abortion being murder, is his abortion murder biblically speaking, and I think we'll 66 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.319 get two more in depth of should we use the word murder in this context? 67 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:12.399 I'll just say right right away. Murder is what it's taking an innocent 68 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:19.360 human life, the intentional taking, with premeditation of an innocent human life with 69 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:24.959 knowledge. Okay, so we first have to establish, hopefully won't have to 70 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:29.279 labor long on this, right. Is that child inside the women innocent human 71 00:05:29.319 --> 00:05:31.279 life? Yeah, of course, as far as you know, the most 72 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:34.560 innocent of human life that there is. They have not had a chance to 73 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:40.000 yet send. Yeah, yeah, so these are human beings. The Bible 74 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:44.199 tells us God formed us in our mother's wombs one hundred thirty nine. Bible 75 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.399 tells us in Jeremiah, chapter one, Verse Five, before I formed you, 76 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:50.519 a new you. So God knows us even before he formed us. 77 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:58.399 God formed us. He acknowledges the humanity of the preborn. Right in the 78 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:04.240 word of God there's an acknowledgement very consistently of the humanity of the preborn. 79 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:09.879 This idea is and I've heard it, maybe a little bit more recently than 80 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:15.920 in the past, but this idea that the Bible doesn't say anything about children 81 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.000 in the womb, that the Bible doesn't give any value. The Bible actually 82 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.240 teaches that we aren't human beings until we breathe our first breath. That's such 83 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:27.199 a bunk idea. We did a podcast about that. Right for every quickly 84 00:06:27.240 --> 00:06:30.199 and easily disputed by the Bible of yours. So I don't think we have 85 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:33.079 to rehash that, but we do have to establish the fact that, yes, 86 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:39.000 abortion is is murder, right. Yeah, it's taking the inscent life 87 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:42.800 of a human being and maybe, more specifically, like I think the Webster 88 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:46.800 Dictionary, is taking an innocent life by malice of four thoughts. So you 89 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:51.800 have malice. It's not an accidental thing. Yeah, and it was premeditated, 90 00:06:51.879 --> 00:06:56.240 was thought out. That's right. And is that what abortion is? 91 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:59.240 Yeah, yeah, and you know, I would absolutely agree. And yes, 92 00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:02.360 it is there. There's no doubt in my mind that abortion is murder 93 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:06.879 of an innocent human being. Yeah. Now, let me say this too, 94 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:10.759 and this could I'm not going to rabbit trail on this, but this 95 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.800 is something to think about, because murder, according to the word of God, 96 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:20.079 like God's Word is the standard. Right, the laws of man should 97 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:24.160 not seek to take the word of God and bring them on their level. 98 00:07:24.279 --> 00:07:28.720 Right. The Laws of Man, which were originally the way this this country 99 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.279 was kind of framed, is to be based on the laws of God. 100 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:34.079 Right. Unfortunately, we've taken the law of God and try to bring it 101 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:38.120 down to our level and we've taken the laws of man and try to bring 102 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:42.839 them above God's God's Word and God's truth. Yeah, currently, in these 103 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:46.839 United States of America, and I know we're looking at on the verge of 104 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.920 maybe rovy Wade being overturned or whatever. I'm not going to get into all 105 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:55.519 of that, but currently we don't view as a nation abortion as murder. 106 00:07:55.639 --> 00:08:00.800 MMM, we think that it's we have said it's in essence as a nation 107 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.319 that these human beings inside the womb with they're not actually human beings, they're 108 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:09.319 just, you know, blobs of tissue, clumps, the cells there beholding 109 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:11.920 to their mother whatever she decides as well. They have no rights and and 110 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.360 other themselves. Yeah, so is abortion murder? Well, in a sense 111 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:22.399 no in these United States, but it should be. Yeah, in God's 112 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:26.360 word it clearly is murder. Yeah, God's word, we're going to stand 113 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:31.639 before him and give an account for what he says, for his standard and 114 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.039 US violating his standard, not a standard that we set for ourselves. Right, 115 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.720 yeah, so I just want to make that clear. Yeah. Now, 116 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:41.080 of course, this conversation that we're having in this podcast is not really 117 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:46.840 that of it. Just want to set that stage. We're more talking about 118 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.679 and from in front of the abortion centers. Should we say, don't murder 119 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.519 your baby, right, right, yea kind of sad. That's basically it. 120 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:58.039 Or were even a bit stronger. Well, look good. Bit Stronger 121 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:03.919 would be to say you murderer. Yeah, or to wear this happened recently 122 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:07.879 where there were a couple of groups out there that we're not with us, 123 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.480 but and they were definitely prolife, but they were wearing shirts that said murder 124 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:20.279 with bloody babies on them, and they were and they were calling out about 125 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:24.279 these people would burn in hell and that they would because they were murdering their 126 00:09:24.360 --> 00:09:30.159 child. And the the anger and the noise and the shouting match that went 127 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.799 on became so aggressive and loud that we were unable to call out to the 128 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:37.720 women about hope or help that might help them to choose their mind. So 129 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.759 that was a lot of what sparked this this podcast. But just what you 130 00:09:43.840 --> 00:09:48.639 said, we know God's Word is is pretty clear about the unborn. It 131 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:54.759 is a human being with rights and value before God, biblically, because God 132 00:09:54.799 --> 00:09:58.120 created that child in his image. So we know that. And and the 133 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:01.159 it he hates, the hands that shed in a SIM blood. We know 134 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:07.720 that God would not have a mother do this. Right. But going to 135 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:15.480 the Bible also then, for how you deal with someone in sin, I 136 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:22.639 think is very valuable and I was I was thinking about how does Jesus approach 137 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:26.840 sin? Yeah, and he approaches it in different ways with different people. 138 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:33.480 But I in my reading of the Bible, the times when he is harshest 139 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:39.440 and must angry is when there's a heart that basically he knows it's so hard 140 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.240 it's not going to change. Yeah, correct me if I'm wrong, but 141 00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:48.000 you know the Pharisees or the people that he calls names are, and Paul 142 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:54.279 as well, that when there's name calling, it's too such a hard heart 143 00:10:54.320 --> 00:11:00.320 that they they know, God knows, Jesus knows at least that person is 144 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:03.919 steeped in their sense to a degree. Thinking about name calling. We're talking 145 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:07.440 about you brute of vipers. Right makes dry. Yeah, sons of your 146 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:11.279 father the devil. Yeah, I mean pretty pretty harsh language. He reserves 147 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.440 that, though, for those that he knows are an it. Correct me 148 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.720 if I'm wrong on this, but do any of those people that he addresses 149 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:24.200 in that way ever change their heart? I mean, we don't know. 150 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.639 We don't know you direct like the Pharisees repented because I called them right route 151 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:31.960 of vipers. I do believe that they're likely some of the Pharisees that were 152 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.759 involved in rejecting and ultimately crucifying Jesus. That maybe the book of acts came 153 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.519 to know the Lord because Jesus, or Peter Says at one point this Christ 154 00:11:41.600 --> 00:11:46.200 him. You crucified. God has made both Lord and Christ, and you 155 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.879 know they Bible says they were cut to the heart and said what must we 156 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:50.879 do to be saved? Yeah, so, without being into a big kind 157 00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:56.200 of priscussion about that, likely, but the point is those who are in 158 00:11:56.240 --> 00:12:01.000 pride, arrogance and obstinates against God. He has no problem with Jesus. 159 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:05.159 Had No problem with you brutal vipers, you murders, you snake's children. 160 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:09.240 Are He that? Yeah, that was his right kind of mode of operation, 161 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.840 right, concerning them, but it was only, it was usually, 162 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:16.600 or maybe only in the response of that kind of an attitude. Yeah, 163 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:24.399 but in the generally when he confronted sin, it was very direct. Yeah, 164 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:33.759 but it was not what I would call confrontational. And the the example 165 00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:39.000 that I saw was in John for I happen to be doing a Bible study 166 00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:43.720 that that was talking about the woman at the well, and I read that 167 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:52.879 story many times and and I'm reading looking for how does Jesus respond to what 168 00:12:52.919 --> 00:13:01.279 looks like a clear sin? Yeah, he never really responds directly confronting that 169 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.799 sin. Yeah. So this is the story of the woman at the whale. 170 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:07.440 Rightly know? Yeah, and we know from that story, in that 171 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:15.000 interaction that she had with Jesus, that she said good, call your husband 172 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.279 and she said, I don't have a husband. I'm paraphrasing, and of 173 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:22.159 course he calls her out. Hey, yeah, we know that the or 174 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:24.000 I know that the guy that you're with is not your husband, right, 175 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.559 that so that's adultery or fornication, and you've had five husbands, which again 176 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:35.639 is if elation of God's law. He doesn't call her an adulter, right, 177 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.480 he doesn't call her a fornicator, he doesn't call her anything. He 178 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:45.919 doesn't even he just makes that statement and then moves on. Yeah, and 179 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:52.919 and I was thinking why, why doesn't he blast her with convicting versus? 180 00:13:52.960 --> 00:14:00.000 And instead he in essence applauds or honesty in saying, you know that she 181 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:05.840 currently doesn't have a husband. And the all he he doesn't even say sin. 182 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:11.240 No more like he does in other passages. He did. He doesn't. 183 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:15.879 And and I'm thinking, well, why? I read a few commentaries 184 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:20.200 on why. I'm not going to go into those, but but I started 185 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:26.039 looking at the result. What was the result? She is still questioning, 186 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.600 she says, could this be the Messiah? So it's not like she's totally 187 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.320 convinced. I don't think not with that kind of language. Could this be 188 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.000 the Messiah? He knew everything about me. But she goes and she tells 189 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:45.399 others the Tash. Her testimony is so convicting that the townspeople go find him 190 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:48.919 and it says many are saved. Yeah, as a result of what sounds 191 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.559 like kind of a questioning faith, but at least a beginning sense that he 192 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:56.799 might be who he says he is. Yeah, and and she's in in 193 00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:01.799 essence, becomes one of the first Advan less, right. Yeah. So 194 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:05.159 kind of springboard off of this story and maybe get a little more in depth 195 00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:09.639 and kind of glean some principles for our context. Yeah, let's remember that 196 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:15.440 this story is one of Jesus having a one on one conversation. Paid. 197 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.200 He's not calling out across a parking lot, right, yeah, he's not. 198 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:22.840 He's not kind of street preaching to a whole village, yeah, of 199 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.919 people. He's having a oneonone conversation. Yeah, and and certainly could. 200 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.240 He could in this situation, say you're an adulter. His perception, though, 201 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:35.720 was that her heart was soft. That's at least the way I'm reading 202 00:15:35.720 --> 00:15:37.840 it. He was very relational with her. Yep, again, he could 203 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:41.679 have called on her an adulter, because she was, but he didn't. 204 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:48.159 And but notice what he does do. He perceives her humility and her reception 205 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:54.519 of his of what he was saying, and kind of look at it. 206 00:15:54.720 --> 00:16:00.519 So he does spell out her sin and her need very clearly here. As 207 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.720 he talks about water. You know, yes, says, you come seeking 208 00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.799 this water, but I have water that he who drinks of it will never 209 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:14.080 thirst again. So he's comparing really himself to what she's so she has had 210 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:18.200 five husbands and now she's with a guy she's not married to. He's seeking 211 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:22.159 something. Yeah, she's seeking water. Air Quotes Right. Yeah, Jesus 212 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.200 is saying, in a sense, you're seeking water, you're seeking fulfillment with 213 00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:30.120 men, but understand that the water that I have the fulfillment, because that's 214 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:33.360 the symbol, the symbolism. We need water, we need this fulfillment of 215 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.080 water in our lives. The water you've been seeking after with these men is 216 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:41.720 never going to feel you, but the water that I give, that water 217 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.360 will you, will quench your thirsty and you'll never be thirsty again. So, 218 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:49.080 yeah, he is confronting her sin, he is confronting her pursuit of 219 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:56.240 Sin, but he's also showing her actually, there there's another option. You 220 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.799 don't have to continue to pursue sin, and I think we can do that 221 00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:03.759 too. Now we do have to be careful because you can say, well, 222 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:06.839 you know, there are women coming to the abortion center who are prideful 223 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.039 and arrogant, and certainly there are, and so our response could be, 224 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:11.559 as they're walking in I don't want your eff and help. You know, 225 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:17.039 we've heard it right. I don't want you guys are out here judging people. 226 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:18.759 You get, you know, you got the hard hearts that come across. 227 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:22.680 It's very phariseeical M and so we could say, well, since Jesus 228 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.640 called the Pharisees a Brood of Vipers, then now I can call out back 229 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.160 across the parking lot to a young lady who's hardhearted and say, well, 230 00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:34.079 you're a filthy murderer, right, and you could be perfectly justified. Well, 231 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.839 can and maybe you're going to make this point, but can I just 232 00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:42.839 entercede that that there is a difference between Jesus and his knowledge of the human 233 00:17:42.920 --> 00:17:49.240 heart and us and our ability to truly see, because in those situations, 234 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:56.160 invariably those really angry people, if you can get into a conversation with them 235 00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:03.400 and break through their defensive is, they oftentimes are the ones that are most 236 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.720 hurting and you're able to really change. Not Not you, the Holy Spirit 237 00:18:07.799 --> 00:18:14.039 is able to change and and and bring that conversation to a much better place. 238 00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:17.680 Yeah, yeah, the reality is, of course we don't know human 239 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:19.920 hearts. That's right. Jesus does, right, yeah, but even if 240 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:23.880 we were to know their kind of full scope of their hearts, and there 241 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:29.440 I'm sure there are people that come in that are just as obstinate and just 242 00:18:29.480 --> 00:18:32.480 as wicked as the Pharisees going into the boys, I'm sure. Yeah. 243 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:36.720 The reality is, though, we have to contend with the fact that there 244 00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:41.839 are others who are humbled, who, in their same state that that, 245 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.279 are listening to what we're saying. And so if we call it out across 246 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:51.640 the parking lot, maybe very justifiably, you're a murderer. Maybe we could 247 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:56.519 do that justifiably because they're in a pharisee of kind of mindset. We're kind 248 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:03.319 of putting the Kabbash, if I could use a technical term, on the 249 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.519 other conversations that we might otherwise have of those who were sitting in their cars, 250 00:19:06.640 --> 00:19:08.799 those you are watching the situation. So we do want to make sure 251 00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.240 that what we come across as with our words, with our body language, 252 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:15.839 we talk about this a lot, with our facial expressions, as inviting. 253 00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:22.039 We don't want to shut down conversations that are happening or that would happen, 254 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.279 and so I do think we need to be careful not to come across. 255 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:29.200 Certainly listen. What we're doing is confrontational enough. Standing in front of a 256 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.640 place where children are dying, pleading with people not to kill their children, 257 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.160 shutting the light of WHO Jesus is at the darkest place in our city. 258 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:42.160 It's confrontational. The Christians life is a confrontational life. It's a confrontation with 259 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:45.960 darkness. Right, when you live your life for Jesus, shining the light 260 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.079 of who he is, you're in confrontation constantly. But we don't need to 261 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:56.400 be unnecessarily confrontational. We don't need to be over the top. If we 262 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:00.200 examine our hearts, a lot of times when we respond in anger or we 263 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:06.960 respond to what we think is maybe this righteous indignation, the reality is we're 264 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.559 responding out of angst. Will responding out of anger and we're responding out of 265 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:17.119 almost kind of like defending ourselves right. We just can't do that. MMMM. 266 00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:21.200 We have to respond out of love, out of kindness, out of 267 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.039 truth. Right, the standard of truth is God's word. We got US 268 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:29.720 respond out of that. But we're not out there to let everybody know how 269 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.799 right we are. Right, out there to let them know that there's one 270 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.680 like in this story, who can give them a drink of water. Yeah, 271 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.920 that if they'll take of that water, they'll never thirst again. Yeah, 272 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:42.880 and we want to draw them to us so that that that we can 273 00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:47.480 have that conversation. But as I was thinking about it further, because there 274 00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:53.359 are Zillions of examples where I've seen someone on the sidewalk very confrontational with the 275 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:59.920 women and it just turns into a shouting match and and nothing happens, nothing 276 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:04.880 good happens, as opposed to a counselor who is trying to relate and trying 277 00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:11.480 and showing compassion to the women and hearing her that it can d escalate and 278 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:15.119 and then more is than there is a true conversation that's going to happen. 279 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:21.480 And I was thinking it is not unlike crisis intervention, what we do out 280 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:26.359 on the sidewalk. We are the women are in crisis and we are there 281 00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:30.480 to try and help them out of that crisis. The crisis is there about 282 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.400 to kill her baby and that is a something we don't want to to happen. 283 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:41.000 And so I started looking up and studying. What do people who study 284 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:47.200 and do crisis intervention? What do they do? And I came across a 285 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:52.640 really great article, which we do link that article in the article that I 286 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:57.799 wrote about this podcast. But it says the goal of crisis intervention is to 287 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:03.000 d escalate and in a sense that is our goal right one of our goals 288 00:22:03.319 --> 00:22:07.599 out there. We don't want tensions to rise. These women are in crisis, 289 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.960 the tensions are high and as soon as that that, if the tensions 290 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:18.559 are, you know, by our actions or words, are risen, are 291 00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:22.680 raised to an even greater level, we're going to lose the opportunity to intervene 292 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.799 because they're going to rush in that we have just increased the crisis in their 293 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:33.200 heart. So the goal is of a crisis intercessor is to descalate and they 294 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.680 gave some tips in this article that we're so I thought helpful as a sidewalk 295 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:45.279 counselor. The first one was foster support. Let these women feel that they 296 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:51.960 are supported, not in their decision to kill, but in just in the 297 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.480 fact there is someone who is here that cares about you and is willing to 298 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:03.680 to be there for you to help you work through this crisis. And if 299 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.839 they feel that support, like someone that's about to jump off a bridge, 300 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:11.519 if there's someone that is fostering the idea that there is someone here for them, 301 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.039 someone to support them. It leads to a better outcome. Okay, 302 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:22.680 focus on resolution, of solving the problem underlying the crisis, and that's something 303 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:30.440 that if you're just shouting you're about to murder your baby, that's actually the 304 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:37.640 result of the crisis, but it is not looking at what caused the crisis 305 00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:41.480 and your focus is not on that. Did does that make sense? Yeah, 306 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:47.680 so, so one of the things they said that helps to focus on 307 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:53.799 resolution building that person self image and self confidence, their image. That woman 308 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:59.839 right now has lost the image of herself as a God. Bear it bearing 309 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.960 the image of God and given the beautiful role as a mother and protector of 310 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:10.799 her child. Yeah, that's her real self. That should be herself image. 311 00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:17.240 So fostering confidence in that image somehow is would be the role in crisis 312 00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:22.319 intervention. One of the things that really spoke to me for a Christ someone 313 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:29.759 trained in crisis intervention should take a less authoritative, less controlling, less confrontational 314 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:33.519 approach, and you actually will have more control over the situation. Okay, 315 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.519 so you're not shutting it down before it even starts, right, you're able 316 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:41.640 to keep the conversation going in, the interaction going, because you're not coming 317 00:24:41.680 --> 00:24:45.480 across as being overbearing and an and a jerk. That's right. One of 318 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.640 the worst things in any relation is if you turn into a shouting match. 319 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:53.960 Yeah, and then what becomes the issue is not the issue anymore, it's 320 00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.160 your anger, and that can happen in front of an abortion center. Yes, 321 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.000 well, so. So you're trying to give the person a sense of 322 00:25:04.039 --> 00:25:07.960 that he or she is in control, because right now she feels out of 323 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:11.960 control and she's doing what to her feels like the easiest solution in someone jumping 324 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:15.200 off the bridge. It's jumping off the bridge. Yeah, and so you 325 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.240 want to give them a sense of control. You don't have to jump off 326 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:23.119 the bridge. There are other options available, which I think feeds right into 327 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:30.400 what we do out on the sidewalk. The model of intervention they in this 328 00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:34.839 article was called the calf model. Calm, assess and facilitate. Again, 329 00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:41.279 I thought that was great. Calm to decrease the emotional level, because it's 330 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.960 at a heightened level in front of an abortion center. So calm, assess, 331 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.880 determine what would be the most appropriate response when you know the facts. 332 00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.559 Well, you're not going to know the facts unless you've been able to get 333 00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:00.200 them to come and talk with you and then facilitate promote the most appropriate resolution 334 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:06.480 based on those facts. We of course, know the most appropriate resolution is 335 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:11.680 saving that child's life, right, but also providing the help right to save 336 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:17.440 that child's life that woman needs. That's right. Yeah. So, I 337 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:22.240 mean I think that these principles, I think they're all they're all great and 338 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.200 they all are applicable to what we're dealing with when we're dealing with women going 339 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.119 into the abortion center. Yeah, kind of to sum this up, we 340 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.799 need to just let the Lord do his thing. US be vessels of the 341 00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:40.480 Lord to speak to their hearts. Yeah, and kind of just slow down. 342 00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:44.119 We don't need to just speak out of our own anger or own angster, 343 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.000 own like kind of disapproval of what that woman is doing. We need 344 00:26:48.039 --> 00:26:51.960 to like, you can yell all you want, you can use all the 345 00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.480 words you want, if the Holy Holy Spirit doesn't convict that woman and she 346 00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:57.799 doesn't respond to the conviction, she's going to walk in there and kill her 347 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:04.319 child. Yeah. Um, and so there's a scripture here that I thought 348 00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:08.640 that I would share that I think has to do with this speaks directly to 349 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:12.680 this and potentially to any not just using the word murder. I think we're 350 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:18.440 using. Should we use the word murder as a springboard for just how we 351 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:22.599 should operate right, how we should come across? Yes, and so here 352 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.799 in Second Timothy Chapter Two, I've read the scripture before, but I think 353 00:27:26.799 --> 00:27:30.519 it's a good one to fresh, to ponder, think, to meditate on 354 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:33.519 in light of the ministry that we do, since it is a pretty confrontational 355 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:40.160 and intense ministry. And it says here in Verse Twenty Four of Second Timothy 356 00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.440 Chapter Two, and a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle 357 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.720 to all, able to teach, patient in humility, correck correcting those who 358 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.160 are in opposition, if God, perhaps, will grant them repentance so that 359 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:56.680 they may know the truth and then they may come to their senses and escape 360 00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:00.000 the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his 361 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:07.119 will. So this speaks of being gentle yeah able to teach these sometimes, 362 00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:11.799 these moments, even when we're dealing with angry women walking into the abortion center, 363 00:28:11.799 --> 00:28:15.160 angry men walking their girlfriend into the abortion center, sitting in the bargain 364 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.839 lot. We're that's a teaching moment actually for them. We can teach them 365 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:25.559 what God's word says. We can teach them the value of their little baby. 366 00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.160 We can teach them that God should be their refuge and strength, not 367 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:30.960 abortion. There's a lot of things that we can teach them. Yeah, 368 00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.319 and it says in humility, correcting those who are in opposition. We have 369 00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.960 to take a posture of humility. The Bible says God resists the proud, 370 00:28:40.519 --> 00:28:42.160 but he gives grace to the humble, and so if we would humble ourselves, 371 00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:45.440 he would give us grace to be able to answer these folks. And 372 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:49.119 it says that we want to be able to answer them and we want to 373 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:53.279 be able to correct them. We should be correcting false understandings, which should 374 00:28:53.279 --> 00:28:56.640 be correcting the idea that it's not a baby, it's just a blob of 375 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.359 tissue or a clump of cells. We should be correcting the idea that abortion 376 00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:04.680 is is a moral good rather than a moral evil right. We should be 377 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:10.480 correcting that. Yeah, but ultimately it says if God perhaps will grant them 378 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:14.599 repentance. So God's going to be the one that grants repentance. Not Us 379 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.359 again, not US using the word murder to help them understand they're murdering their 380 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:22.559 child. Not Us. You not using the word murder? I'm not. 381 00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:26.319 You know, I'm kind of like we got to rely on the Lord, 382 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:29.519 right, we got to rely on him to do the work in their hearts. 383 00:29:29.559 --> 00:29:36.759 But we do have within this scripture a framework to just stay calm speak 384 00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:40.920 the truth. Can you say abortion is murder to a woman to walk it 385 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.599 into the abortion centre? Yeah, you can. I do, but it's 386 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:45.440 not going to be the first thing that I say. It's not going to 387 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.160 be the first thing that comes out of my mouth and I'm probably not going 388 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:52.039 to say it across the parking lot. Yeah, I'm probably in more of 389 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:56.559 a one on one context. I will say your child is an innocent human 390 00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:02.359 being. Taking an instant him in life is murder. You know that abortion 391 00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:06.000 is murder. You're going to be murdering your innocent baby. So I don't 392 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.799 think it's wrong to say that. I don't think it's incorrect to say that, 393 00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:11.960 but I do think that we need to be careful in the way that 394 00:30:11.960 --> 00:30:15.720 we come across so that we're not shutting the conversations down immediately. Before they 395 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.480 even start, and the words that we say don't come out of just I 396 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.240 want to say this because I'm correct or whatever like. We have to come 397 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.240 from a posture of humility and again allow the Lord to do his work in 398 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.519 their hearts. Yeah, I think that's really well set and I think that 399 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:36.640 is the main point. And and I will usually tone down those confrontational words, 400 00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:40.440 especially as I'm trying to draw them out to talk with me. So 401 00:30:40.480 --> 00:30:45.160 it's something for everyone to consider, because I know, I I do recognize 402 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:48.200 what you said. It's absolutely true and I recognize there are people that really, 403 00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:52.759 really feel strongly they must use that word. But I hope that this 404 00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:57.160 will help you to consider in one context and when to be seeing those, 405 00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:03.960 those more anger producing kinds of words. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 406 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.200 I'll just end with this. When you yell across the Parking Lot, 407 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:12.039 don't go in there and murder your child, you can be you can be 408 00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:18.200 technically correct, but relationally wrong. Yeah, they're there are correct words that 409 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:22.720 you can use, but relationally wrong. And in that context you're not just 410 00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:30.319 delivering information, but you're giving an accusation. Yeah, you're basically the point 411 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.640 in the finger and saying you're a murder, you're involved in murder. Yeah, 412 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:37.359 we've got to give again the Holy Spirit space to bring that conviction to 413 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:40.960 them, to convince them, and that normally happens in a one on one 414 00:31:41.079 --> 00:31:44.559 conversation with them. So, yeah, I want to have those conversations. 415 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:47.839 We don't want to shut them down. So we hope that this was an 416 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:49.400 encouragement to you, guys. We hope that you will consider what we have 417 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.039 to say here. We'd love to hear your feedback on this. Maybe have 418 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.400 something, maybe have some pushback on this. And you think maybe we should 419 00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.759 say murder every time? We're probably going to get pushback on this. Just 420 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.200 learning. Yeah, I would love to hear some pushback on this. I 421 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:06.960 don't claim to have it all figured out right. Vicky doesn't claim I have 422 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.480 now figured out doing the best we can with what we see in God's word 423 00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:13.240 and what we've experienced out there on the sidewalk. So yeah, we'd love 424 00:32:13.319 --> 00:32:15.759 to hear from you, guys. You can reach me, Daniel at Love 425 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.559 Life Dot Org. You reach her, Vicki, with a why at Love 426 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:22.559 Life Dot Org. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear 427 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:27.279 just ideas for future podcast episodes and we'd love for you guys to leave us 428 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.400 a review. If you could leave us a review on either apple podcasts or 429 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:36.000 any other podcast service that you use, sure it would be helpful for us 430 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.920 to get up in the ratings and get this podcast shared with other people. 431 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:49.400 But until next time, God bless God, bless y'all. Love for love, 432 00:32:52.519 --> 00:33:00.279 give me our love for gratitude. I know well will cost me my 433 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:08.200 life. Nothing's too precious since I met you,