Should We Use Graphic Images to Change Minds About Abortion? Interview with Joanna Keilson and Lincoln Brandenburg from Center for Bioethical Reform

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.750 Lord, I am yours. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. 3 00:00:10.949 --> 00:00:14.589 In this episode we're going to talk with members of the Center for bioethical reform 4 00:00:14.910 --> 00:00:19.750 about using graphic images to change minds about abortion. This is an important topic, 5 00:00:19.829 --> 00:00:36.250 so stay tuned. I felt show passis touch your use me. Welcome 6 00:00:36.289 --> 00:00:40.289 to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys who listen, and 7 00:00:40.850 --> 00:00:46.689 we have some special guests here today that are from the Center for bioethical reform. 8 00:00:46.810 --> 00:00:50.000 I said that right. That's correct. Yes, maybe even better known 9 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:55.840 as CBR, and Miss Joanna Kilson, yes, Yep, and Lincoln. 10 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:59.840 I don't know your last name, Brandenburg, Brandenburg. Okay, so these 11 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:03.399 guys are going to share with us a little bit of what they do as 12 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:07.310 an organization, kind of what they're focus and their mission is, and then 13 00:01:07.629 --> 00:01:11.469 hopefully some stories of what God has done and how some hearts and minds have 14 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.150 been changed. So real quick, Joanna, introduce yourself what your role is 15 00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:22.939 with CBR and what that involves. Sure. So, I am the director 16 00:01:22.939 --> 00:01:27.180 of recruitment and intern program director, so I'm involved in various roles, but 17 00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:33.930 a lot of what I do is recruiting and training staff, of volunteers, 18 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:37.810 new staff, and there's we all wear a lot of hats, so there's 19 00:01:37.810 --> 00:01:40.049 a lot that needs to be done. I understand that done them. If 20 00:01:40.209 --> 00:01:42.329 we're in a bunch of hat that's the most concise way to say a little 21 00:01:42.329 --> 00:01:46.170 bit of what I do. Okay, cool and Lincoln. Well, I 22 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:49.439 am, on paper, my roles the development of staff, or sees me 23 00:01:49.480 --> 00:01:53.599 the director of staff developments. Okay, and, like Joanna says, we 24 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:57.640 all wear a lot of different hats and a lot of my role also includes 25 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.879 just doing activism outings and planning the things will do out on the streets, 26 00:02:00.920 --> 00:02:04.670 which I'm sure we'll talk about here at some point. And Yeah, it's 27 00:02:04.709 --> 00:02:08.270 I've been here for about eight years doing this and we've we've traveled where a 28 00:02:08.349 --> 00:02:14.830 national organization with international affiliates, and then Joan and I respectively have both been 29 00:02:14.909 --> 00:02:17.780 to probably about what ten to twelve different states, and then you've been out 30 00:02:17.780 --> 00:02:23.419 of the country some working with other pro life organizations. I'm working with people 31 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.099 to advance the mission. Okay. Well, I'm glad you bring that up. 32 00:02:27.139 --> 00:02:30.330 Advance the mission. What is the mission then, of the Center for 33 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:37.129 about ethical reform. It sounds really like scientific e and in medically and stuff 34 00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:38.689 like that. I'm sure there's some of that. But what's the mission? 35 00:02:39.050 --> 00:02:46.800 Well, we are very passionate that abortion represents an evil that is so profound 36 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:53.520 that you cannot fully understand it unless you see it. Okay, and so 37 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.189 a lot of what we're known for around a pro life circles and wherever is 38 00:02:59.349 --> 00:03:01.430 that? Where the people that bring up the pictures and okay, we've actually 39 00:03:01.469 --> 00:03:08.909 compiled a pretty much the largest in the world archive of professionally taken abortion victim 40 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:14.060 images. Yeah, and most of the if you even Google for abortion victim 41 00:03:14.060 --> 00:03:16.780 images, it's probably our photos that are going to show up because they're they're 42 00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:22.020 very high resolution. We usually have them in a picture with some kind of 43 00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:24.500 size reference, like a coin or a familiar objects of the people. When 44 00:03:24.539 --> 00:03:28.490 these pictures are made large, people can see what it is and see how, 45 00:03:29.090 --> 00:03:32.289 even the early trimester, how well developed the baby is. But we've 46 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:37.250 really based this on there's there's biblical reasons for the use of the pictures. 47 00:03:37.330 --> 00:03:42.319 There's historical reasons that I think are very compelling and it's something that we see 48 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:47.000 both in society at large and also in the Christian community, that it's one 49 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:52.360 thing to have a theoretical position on the subject, but seeing it for what 50 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:54.710 it really is is what really grips people, both in their conscience and in 51 00:03:54.750 --> 00:03:58.189 their intellect, to see that, yeah, this is a real human life, 52 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.830 this is a real baby, and abortion is an act of violence. 53 00:04:00.069 --> 00:04:04.349 Yeah, absolutely. I know we have in our brochures that we hand out 54 00:04:04.389 --> 00:04:09.270 at the abortion center, on one of the inside pages actually, when of 55 00:04:09.349 --> 00:04:12.539 you guys, pictures of a victim of abortion at eleven weeks. We feel 56 00:04:12.580 --> 00:04:15.579 like it's very effective to show it to an abortion amounted woman going into an 57 00:04:15.620 --> 00:04:18.379 abortion clinic. We do it in a measured way, you know, ask 58 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.019 her, can is it art if I show you what abortion looks like? 59 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:26.649 And we've seen God use that image in some some pretty powerful way. So 60 00:04:26.769 --> 00:04:30.610 you guys are doing that and more of a big picture way. Right. 61 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:35.209 So Joanna shere real quick. So basically what I'm here from Lincoln is, 62 00:04:35.410 --> 00:04:38.920 if I was just to make it in a nutshell, you're trying to make 63 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:44.560 the reality of abortion evident, in the violence of abortion evident in a visual 64 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.120 way. And where do you do that at? Primarily or where do you 65 00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:49.920 do that? I mean maybe there's a mix, maybe there's not just one 66 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:55.149 place where you guys go. But where does that take place at? So 67 00:04:55.230 --> 00:04:58.629 we do a lot of work on college campuses. That is the age range 68 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:03.110 where the majority of people are getting abortions. Yeah, and they're twenty. 69 00:05:03.310 --> 00:05:10.220 So college and after. Yeah, and it is the thinking grounds of our 70 00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:12.860 of our nation, and so we do a lot of work there. But 71 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:16.500 really wherever there are people and wherever we are invited, which is usually the 72 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:20.259 streets, because we're not often for I wanted, and that's why there's neat 73 00:05:20.610 --> 00:05:26.050 tod do what we do. So the streets of any city, country, 74 00:05:26.089 --> 00:05:29.009 where ever they are people, we pass out there, sure, but really 75 00:05:29.089 --> 00:05:32.449 meanly showing them the humanity of the preborn and humanity of abortion. So let 76 00:05:32.490 --> 00:05:35.959 me just kind of correct me if I'm wrong. Kind of set of visual 77 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:42.959 through audio for people. You guys go to a college campus and you set 78 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.680 up victim images and if people don't know exactly what we're talking we're talking about 79 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:48.680 victim images. Were talking about pictures of a boarded babies. Right, yes, 80 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:53.189 these are victims of a board portion, and you set up these images 81 00:05:53.910 --> 00:05:57.189 and again, they're not just like these kind of rough hand drawn images, 82 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:01.750 they're actually real images that have been taken and you kind of just have a 83 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:08.819 display there in the college campus and folks come by, college students, professors 84 00:06:08.899 --> 00:06:12.860 come by, and your goal is just to come and just make them angry. 85 00:06:13.180 --> 00:06:15.579 Is that right? Well, that's there's a little news to that. 86 00:06:16.019 --> 00:06:21.490 It does often make people angry, and we do actually I'm of the mindset 87 00:06:21.490 --> 00:06:25.810 that when people get angry, that is actually a good sign, because it 88 00:06:25.970 --> 00:06:30.889 means that the position that they previously held and perhaps are still trying to defend, 89 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.279 they're realizing that they're defending the indefensible. Yeah, and nobody, like 90 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:39.399 myself included, nobody, likes to have a challenge of a position that we 91 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:43.319 hold very close challenged, and we especially don't like to think that Hey, 92 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.350 maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm you know, and you're holding up something as 93 00:06:46.389 --> 00:06:51.230 being about human rights and about women's rights and there's all these euphemism surrounding the 94 00:06:51.310 --> 00:06:56.670 way the public at large thinks about abortion, and when we show the pictures 95 00:06:56.750 --> 00:07:00.629 for what they are, we're dismantling that euphemism. And so one thing our 96 00:07:00.750 --> 00:07:04.339 founder, Greg Cunningham, is quoted often too saying is that when we show 97 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:11.459 the victims of abortion, we are not protesting abortion because abortion protest itself. 98 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:14.660 Yeah, when you show it, yeah, that's that's a good, good 99 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:18.850 quote here and we go. I really aren't. Goal is to each that 100 00:07:18.930 --> 00:07:23.050 middle fifty percent. So if you think about there's maybe twenty five percent on 101 00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:26.370 one side who are strongly pro life and then twenty five percent who are strongly 102 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.319 pro choice or pro abortion. There's that middle fifty percent who are kind of 103 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.120 you know, maybe they call themselves pro choice, sometimes even pro life, 104 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:36.600 but they're really just kind of unsure and they're very swayable. But those people 105 00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.480 do not come to us. We have to go to them. They are 106 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.480 not looking for the information, they're not listening this podcast, they're not at 107 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:45.990 the abortion clinic, you know. I mean they might be at some point, 108 00:07:46.069 --> 00:07:47.589 but yeah, they're really just going about their daily life, and so 109 00:07:48.110 --> 00:07:50.750 we have to go to them. And a lot of them are more open 110 00:07:50.790 --> 00:07:56.269 and they're they're not the vocal minority on either side. They're they're more silent, 111 00:07:56.629 --> 00:07:59.420 the final majority, and so those are really the people that we are 112 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:01.860 trying to reach that are more swayable. Yeah, and they are or open. 113 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:05.379 Yeah, and along those lines, with that specific grouping our audience, 114 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:09.180 we tend to not very often. I mean obviously there are exceptions, but 115 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.529 typically we're not going out in front of abortion clinics per se. And obviously, 116 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:16.850 you know, we very much support and partner with and believe in ministries, 117 00:08:16.889 --> 00:08:18.569 you know, like your own, yes, cities for life, that 118 00:08:18.689 --> 00:08:22.769 do that because the need is so great. And and you guys, you 119 00:08:22.850 --> 00:08:24.689 know I commend you that. You know you're seeing little baby say, because 120 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:28.120 you're out there right where the the action happens, right where the killing is 121 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:31.600 going to happen if someone doesn't step into intervene. But a lot of that 122 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:35.720 mindset we have with reaching that that middle demographic of the people who are just 123 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.440 kind of on the fence or who, you know, hold positions in their 124 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.950 mind that are contradictory but maybe just don't realize it. On the FT are 125 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.350 are they're just apathetic about it. Yeah, the with reaching them it's the 126 00:08:48.470 --> 00:08:52.149 mindset that we're trying to not only save individual babies from abortion, but also 127 00:08:52.230 --> 00:08:58.500 trying to change public opinion and trying to shift the way the culture views abortion 128 00:08:58.659 --> 00:09:03.820 and and really dismantled that euphemism of choice, which is the word people associate 129 00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:07.379 with abortion, so that next time they you know, here, CNN or 130 00:09:07.419 --> 00:09:11.649 whoever, talking about women's reproductive healthcare or the freedom of choice, they now 131 00:09:11.730 --> 00:09:15.409 have a picture emblaze in their mind that they will not forget of what that 132 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:18.250 choice actually means and that there's an actual, real victim, a real person 133 00:09:18.370 --> 00:09:22.889 who had to suffer as the casualty, yeah, of that choice. We 134 00:09:22.970 --> 00:09:26.360 don't have the media or anyone in poses of power on our side, so 135 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.879 we have to be at me, we have to go out. Where else 136 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.960 are the going to see this information? Nowhere, so you have to broadcast 137 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:39.029 it. So in one sense you're forcing a necessary conversation. You're you're forcing 138 00:09:39.110 --> 00:09:43.110 people. When I say force, a lot of people don't like that, 139 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:48.990 but the reality is that that media, even what we're dealing with now with 140 00:09:48.149 --> 00:09:52.509 a think while we were talking before, the podcast mentioned with the Jord George 141 00:09:52.549 --> 00:09:56.379 Floyd thing. It's like people are forced to confront an evil by that image. 142 00:09:56.379 --> 00:10:01.220 I remember I watch the video of the police officer with his knee on 143 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:03.500 this guy's neck and I just about started weeping right in front of my kids. 144 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:07.409 I'm going through facebook and I see it, I'm like my daughter asked 145 00:10:07.450 --> 00:10:11.850 me what's going on. I was just forced to be confronted with a reality. 146 00:10:11.889 --> 00:10:15.970 And so you guys, in one sense or for or sing in the 147 00:10:16.090 --> 00:10:18.090 market place of ideas. That's what the college campus is used to be. 148 00:10:18.250 --> 00:10:22.120 Now, yes, more of a market place of Marxism, but anyway, 149 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.200 we won't go there. You're forcing them to think about things that they have 150 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.360 already decided about, but really they're not decided about and that and that's important 151 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.190 and and I'll just openly admit that I I am fine with the mindset and 152 00:10:35.230 --> 00:10:37.950 I know some Christians kind of feel squeamish about this, but the fact is 153 00:10:39.110 --> 00:10:43.590 that we are forcing that debate and we are bringing this out to the public 154 00:10:43.629 --> 00:10:46.990 square, to an audience kind of without their consense. Yeah, and if 155 00:10:48.070 --> 00:10:50.740 you and a lot of that is just that mindset that you know, you 156 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:54.500 look at the biblical profits, you look at modern social or form movements like 157 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:58.700 Dr Martin Luther King Jr and some of his his writings and his tactics, 158 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.299 and you just see where, as long as we have this mindset that we're 159 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:05.610 going to and obviously I recognize in the context of an abortion clinic and an 160 00:11:05.610 --> 00:11:09.049 abortion minded woman, this is a little bit different. Yeah, absolutely, 161 00:11:09.049 --> 00:11:11.809 but in terms of the general public, we can't wait for them to come 162 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:16.129 to us or consent to come and hear our message and to see these images, 163 00:11:16.169 --> 00:11:18.759 because nobody wants to see this. Yeah, and the whole point is 164 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.159 that we are so pathetically, sadly apathetic and comfortable with being sheltered from the 165 00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:28.279 hard realities like this that exists even in our own country. And so we 166 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:33.190 are intentionally going out to places that are busy and that a lot of eyeballs 167 00:11:33.230 --> 00:11:35.509 will see our message and and granted, we're not going to pressure people to 168 00:11:35.629 --> 00:11:39.029 look, we're not going to chase them down to hand them a Rochure, 169 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:43.429 but we do want to create a situation where the default alts is that they 170 00:11:43.509 --> 00:11:46.179 will see this image and they have to choose to look away, rather than 171 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:50.620 having this image hidden and they have to choose to look yeah, and so 172 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:54.340 then you get, you know, William Weber Force, the British abolitionist who's 173 00:11:54.340 --> 00:11:58.700 wellknown for bringing into slavery in the British Empire. He's quoted as having said 174 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:03.250 that you can choose to look the other way, but you can never again 175 00:12:03.289 --> 00:12:05.409 say, but you did not know. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you 176 00:12:05.490 --> 00:12:09.289 know, as we were talking about before we started the podcast, it's a 177 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:13.009 reality that you see in the Bible and it's a reality that we know that 178 00:12:13.129 --> 00:12:18.799 human beings are visual creatures. God knows that, right, he knows that 179 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.480 and he plays on that. We see that Biblical imagery as we're reading. 180 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.879 The scriptures are pictures. The prophets choose pictures when we talk a little bit 181 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.110 more about that, but we are visual creatures and when you put an image 182 00:12:30.549 --> 00:12:33.429 in someone's pathway, I mean, if you think about it and if people 183 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:37.350 are going to accuse, you know, prolifers or accuse you guys of being 184 00:12:37.470 --> 00:12:43.750 just blatantly like provocative or whatever, Peter at the other day I was actually 185 00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:46.059 at Chick Fil A. Love chickflay. Oh, yes, it's some Christian 186 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:48.539 chicken, that's right, and I was there in the chickflay parking lot and 187 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:52.460 I looked up and there was a billboard in the chickflay parking lot, by 188 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:54.820 the way, that was a person's face, half of the person's facing, 189 00:12:54.820 --> 00:12:58.929 the other half was a chickens face, and it was something like it wasn't 190 00:12:58.929 --> 00:13:01.529 like chickens or people too but it was something like that, and they were 191 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:05.610 forcing people in the chick fil a parking lot to deal with the reality that 192 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:11.250 they're part of killing chickens. Now, you and I I that's ridiculous. 193 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:13.399 Chickens are Yummy, right, I don't agree with them bad you admire their 194 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.120 moxie. That, yeah, that's their messaging. There really need to be 195 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:20.360 yeah, and so, in a more important way, you guys are doing 196 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:26.840 that in a college campus context. So you have what's called, if I'm 197 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:31.950 not mistaken about this, the gap project. Describe that side awareness project. 198 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:37.629 Okay, so gap stands for genocide awareness project. What meaneth that? What 199 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:41.149 do you mean by genocide awareness project? Well, there's a sense in which 200 00:13:41.779 --> 00:13:46.899 we're we're trying to really provoke the public to think about abortion not in terms 201 00:13:46.899 --> 00:13:50.740 of just the individual death of one life, but also thinking in terms of 202 00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:54.139 that this is a massive genocide. This is something and I think there's a 203 00:13:54.179 --> 00:14:00.330 good case for that, because you look at the comparison between abortion and any 204 00:14:00.409 --> 00:14:03.330 other group of humans throughout history that have been deprived and stripped of their human 205 00:14:03.370 --> 00:14:07.330 rights and you see certain similarities where, you know, we used to humanizing 206 00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:13.960 language to describe the victims. And so the Jews during the Nazi Germany Reign, 207 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:18.000 they were referred to as subhuman or renderment. Yeah, you had the 208 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:20.840 words that people use to describe black people in the United States that were meant 209 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.549 to be subhuman and meant to be derogatory. And you know, nowadays we 210 00:14:24.629 --> 00:14:28.389 refer to the baby as it's a clump of cells and, yeah, a 211 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.909 product of conception, it's a parasite, it's not a person in the full 212 00:14:31.990 --> 00:14:37.029 sense of the law. And with just looking at the different definitions of genocide 213 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:41.379 and the mindset behind hind genocide, it's always about a group of people who 214 00:14:41.379 --> 00:14:45.860 are in the protected class drawing a circle around themself and saying, okay, 215 00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:48.299 if you're in this circle, you are human. This is what it means 216 00:14:48.340 --> 00:14:52.860 to be a person with rights and respected under the law, and it's the 217 00:14:52.889 --> 00:14:56.769 people outside of that who either have something we want or they get in our 218 00:14:56.809 --> 00:15:01.129 way or there's some reason why we won't. We benefit from them not having 219 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:05.730 the same yes as us, and so we exclude them. And here with 220 00:15:05.850 --> 00:15:09.960 abortion, we would say that the group being targeted is specifically unwanted and unborn 221 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.519 children. Yeah, because you can't kill a baby in the womb whose mother 222 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.039 wants him, because you know, in most states you will be charged with 223 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.759 a double homicide if you kill a pregnant woman. Yeah, and then, 224 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.110 of course, if the baby is unwanted but they're born, well, at 225 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:26.350 that point the law protects them. We call that infanticide or, you know, 226 00:15:26.470 --> 00:15:31.149 child abuse. But it's a specific, identifiable people group and it's it's 227 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:35.620 really designed to to prick the conscience in a way beyond even just the images 228 00:15:35.659 --> 00:15:41.940 themselves, because with this specific display we parallel the images with images from the 229 00:15:43.179 --> 00:15:46.899 Holocaust or from the Rwandan genocide or from the massacret wounded. Need just all 230 00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:52.970 these different historical references and it's designs that people see. Okay, you know, 231 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.490 this is something that I look back a long time ago and we know 232 00:15:54.649 --> 00:15:58.529 that was wrong. This wounded the massacre where all the native Americans were rounded 233 00:15:58.610 --> 00:16:03.360 up and shot by the US cavalry, and we all recognize that as wrong. 234 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:10.240 But see, there's this mechanism that we have where we like to think 235 00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:12.159 that Oh, those people a long time ago, are those people far away, 236 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:17.600 those people were backwards and wicked and did something just in humane. But 237 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:22.190 I'm not like that. We're very civilized. We're very progressive, we're very 238 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.230 pro equality of human rights. We would never, had we been there, 239 00:16:26.350 --> 00:16:27.750 we would never. Oh, yes, we would have. We would have, 240 00:16:27.830 --> 00:16:32.070 liked Jesus, would have stood against it. That's right. Jesus condemnsed 241 00:16:32.110 --> 00:16:33.419 people who said that same thing. Yeah, it's just that we think we 242 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:37.899 would have done better and yet statistically, most of US probably would not have, 243 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:41.460 and so it's more convicting even than just damages by themselves and that, 244 00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:45.379 and so that's especially for a secular society. That's the thrust of our message, 245 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.690 is that abortion is not only murder, but that abortion is genocide on 246 00:16:49.769 --> 00:16:53.690 a large scale level. Yeah, you know, scripture says there's nothing new 247 00:16:53.730 --> 00:16:59.649 under the Sun. Humanity, since the beginning, since there were people groups, 248 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:03.359 has had one people group against the other, oppressing, taken advantage of, 249 00:17:03.880 --> 00:17:08.559 killing off of me. It's like it's the human propensity to to take 250 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.359 advantage of people when we're able to, and it's in it's evil when it 251 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.200 like you said, that's got to be confronted. I appreciate them. Yeah, 252 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:19.190 that you guys are doing that. What is the reception within the college 253 00:17:19.309 --> 00:17:23.990 campus? What what are I don't know, maybe share some stories, if 254 00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:29.670 you can, of some positive reception, negative reception and, like you said, 255 00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:32.740 Lincoln, even before we started this thing, it's all positive as far 256 00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:34.859 as your con scerned because if they're angry, at least they're hearing what you're 257 00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:38.140 saying. But Jamana, share a little bit about the reception in the college 258 00:17:38.180 --> 00:17:42.859 campus, even in the Public Square, street corner, that sort of thing. 259 00:17:44.609 --> 00:17:48.849 Sure. Yeah, so I think that you know that the message hits 260 00:17:48.289 --> 00:17:52.009 every individual at a different place, because every individual is at a different place, 261 00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:55.569 but it meets them where they are and that's what we try to do, 262 00:17:55.809 --> 00:17:59.279 you know, conversationally as well. But everyone's going to respond differently because 263 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.839 they're a different place. So some people are really angry and some people are, 264 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.799 yeah, upset, cuss us out, you know all kinds of things. 265 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:08.880 Yeah, so we do get a lot of that, but we also 266 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:11.319 get a lot of positive reception. A lot of people thank you so much 267 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.470 for you're doing. You know this is so needed. And we get a 268 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.349 lot of positives and then we get a lot of questions and a lot of 269 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:22.069 people who are just kind of going about their life and either they'll proach us 270 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:23.670 and ask US questions they've never heard the answer to you know, they've heard 271 00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:27.660 one side, they've heard what they've been told by mainstream society and they've never 272 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:32.740 heard the the answers the opposite side, and so they never had that chance. 273 00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:33.740 So then, you know, thank you, thank you for answers are 274 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.460 Oh, you know, I've really had a good conversation. And and then, 275 00:18:37.019 --> 00:18:38.940 you know, we go to that. You know, we approach people, 276 00:18:38.980 --> 00:18:41.329 as you know, we ask them, you know, what do you 277 00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:45.529 think and all, I don't know, it's not something I really thought about 278 00:18:45.569 --> 00:18:48.450 much. Or Oh, I think it's fine because, you know, you 279 00:18:48.529 --> 00:18:49.690 know a foe woman's raped or if she's really poor, and then we get 280 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:52.970 to have that discussion with them and what do you think? And then, 281 00:18:52.089 --> 00:18:56.039 you know, we go through our apologetics and to just really confront you know, 282 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:59.640 is this really logical? It is this really and you don't get them 283 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.119 thinking. We really want them to think. Yeah, because so you're not, 284 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.480 like I said, kind of ingest, absolutely ingest. You're not there 285 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:15.150 just to make people angry, but you're there to invoke conversations and thoughts and 286 00:19:15.829 --> 00:19:18.269 maybe the perception is which is why you get some of the angry people coming 287 00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:21.829 over and they're going to set you straight is that you're just there to make 288 00:19:21.869 --> 00:19:26.740 them angry, just there to offend them, and when they come and approach 289 00:19:26.779 --> 00:19:30.420 you and they find that you're not like what they thought you were, this 290 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:36.140 bravenoist, anti choice activist or whatever, you actually a loving person that wants 291 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:38.170 to answer their questions. What's the reception on that? And have you ever 292 00:19:38.210 --> 00:19:41.130 had a situation where they're coming to set you straight and then, you know, 293 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:45.450 thirty minutes later they're like, thank you, he had all the time, 294 00:19:45.769 --> 00:19:48.849 all the time. And there's a sense to in which like where I 295 00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:51.369 would say, you know, a little caveat, like in some ways, 296 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:53.640 maybe we are trying to make people angry in a sense, and what I 297 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:57.319 would explain that as is that we know we're going to get a reaction and 298 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.319 we know that some people, a lot of people are not going to agree 299 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:03.799 with us. And almost everywhere we go we get protesters who set up and 300 00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:07.950 they'll have their signs that are, you know, usually handmade, or they'll 301 00:20:07.950 --> 00:20:10.509 be out there trying to cover us up or, you know, trying to 302 00:20:10.549 --> 00:20:14.990 engage on their side of the issue and people the target audience that we're trying 303 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.470 to reach, that Joanna describe those people in the middle. They come by 304 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:22.059 and they see the contrast. Yeah, they see the horrible pictures, they 305 00:20:22.059 --> 00:20:26.339 see US responding to people gently, having civilized conversations, being challenging perhaps, 306 00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:32.059 but at least not being derogatory or mean spirited. And then they go to 307 00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:33.900 the other side they see them, you know, at in some cases they've 308 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:37.930 seen them vandalize our signs. And so, you know, one person I 309 00:20:38.009 --> 00:20:41.849 was talking to, he's pro a pro choice young man at a college in 310 00:20:42.210 --> 00:20:47.690 I want to say Florida, and someone came in just through some pain on 311 00:20:47.730 --> 00:20:51.599 our signs and ran off and that really touched him. He was like, 312 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:53.599 oh my goodness, like your position must be pretty poor if you feel like 313 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:57.720 you have to do that to get it across rather than engage people. Yeah, 314 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.640 we had a there was another school in Florida where this guy on a 315 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.160 motorcycle, you know, with his jacket, he comes by and he was 316 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.710 just very he was not going to commit to either side. He had his 317 00:21:07.789 --> 00:21:10.630 notepad in his pin and he came to us. He asked his hard questions 318 00:21:10.670 --> 00:21:12.589 and he was sitting there writing our answers and he was just very engaged. 319 00:21:14.309 --> 00:21:15.950 And then he went to the other side. He said, okay, I 320 00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:18.619 want to go hear what they have to say, and he walks across the 321 00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:22.220 protesters, spends a few minutes with them doing the same thing. He comes 322 00:21:22.259 --> 00:21:25.380 back to us and he's frustrated. At that point he says, you know 323 00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:32.660 what, you guys actually have articulate reasons and logical explanations for why you believe 324 00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:37.849 what you believe, and all the other side has is catch phrases and slogans 325 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:41.170 and just things that they've repeated and parroted that don't actually have any substance to 326 00:21:41.289 --> 00:21:45.609 them. Yeah, and so it's really creating a situation where people see the 327 00:21:45.730 --> 00:21:51.160 other side trying to defend the indefensible and they see the slogans and they see 328 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.079 just the the vileness of that. Yeah, and hopefully see the contrast and 329 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:57.480 it causes them, it forces the time, I think, to one examine 330 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.829 hey like not only the facts of the issue, which we certainly want them 331 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.869 to but then also, you know, remembering the pictures and they're remembering the 332 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.710 fact that they were treated with respect. And what did they see on the 333 00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:10.230 other side? Yeah, and we're sewing seeds, you know, a a 334 00:22:10.269 --> 00:22:12.470 lot of times it's not oh wow, I can't believe us so stupid. 335 00:22:12.509 --> 00:22:15.740 I didn't know. You know, they don't. It's not an immediate conversion, 336 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:18.660 but sometimes it is. But a lot of times more often, you 337 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:21.259 know, we know any time where any of us are confronted with someone says 338 00:22:21.259 --> 00:22:22.740 something that's different what we already think, you know, we kind of argue 339 00:22:22.779 --> 00:22:25.940 back a bit and you know, I think it because of this, is 340 00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:26.900 what about this? You know that then you go home and think about and 341 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:30.329 that's what they do. You'll go home and think about it and sometimes, 342 00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:33.089 you know, years later, but you know, you come back and tell 343 00:22:33.089 --> 00:22:36.210 us, yeah, I didn't see, yeah, I was angry, and 344 00:22:36.289 --> 00:22:38.569 change my mind. So you've got a let's say you've got a you got 345 00:22:38.650 --> 00:22:45.200 the gap project set up and you're displaying these contrasts, or actually these comparisons 346 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:49.759 between abortion and other genocize that have taken place in human history, and a 347 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:55.319 pro abortion person comes up and they have their sign that did just handcrafted from 348 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:59.069 a pizza box and they wanted to set you straight and they're blocking your signs 349 00:22:59.750 --> 00:23:02.390 and they're trying to get people not to look at what you've got to say. 350 00:23:02.910 --> 00:23:07.269 How do you deal with that person? So there is a verse, 351 00:23:07.549 --> 00:23:10.230 and I think it's proverbs two, five hundred and twenty six. That's, 352 00:23:10.829 --> 00:23:14.019 I think, very needed in the church today, very needed among Christian circles 353 00:23:14.059 --> 00:23:15.779 and people who do what we do, and you're probably already familiar with it, 354 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:19.660 but it says that, like a muddied spring or polluted well, is 355 00:23:19.700 --> 00:23:25.700 a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. And so you know, 356 00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:27.289 there's a sense we're willing to go out there and there is a context for 357 00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:30.769 turning the other cheek. Yeah, but when we're out here standing not for 358 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:34.930 ourselves but for the victims, and we're out there showing pictures to tell their 359 00:23:36.049 --> 00:23:40.569 story and to stand for their well being on their behalf, we will we 360 00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:45.720 will not tolerate people coming out there and trying to to block that or to 361 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.440 censor that, because they have a legal right to free speech. And so 362 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.039 we don't. We don't tear their signs out of their hands, we don't 363 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:53.680 try to block them, we don't try to mess with their ability to get 364 00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:56.829 their message across and we expect to be treated the same way. And so 365 00:23:57.150 --> 00:24:02.109 if people come and they try to block things or vandalize or do something like 366 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:03.990 that, that's illegal. You know, we will call the police or we 367 00:24:04.150 --> 00:24:07.190 will, you know, ask them to move and we will even take legal 368 00:24:07.230 --> 00:24:11.539 measures, because that does come to the point where, okay, we're not 369 00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:14.460 going to be you know, being being a Christian doesn't mean that we have 370 00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:17.819 to be pushovers. Yeah, and we're standing for something that is righteous like 371 00:24:17.980 --> 00:24:21.099 this, we won't be pushovers. Yeah, yeah, we've had situation just 372 00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.970 from personal experience, at the abortion centers. We've had pro abortion people. 373 00:24:25.089 --> 00:24:27.769 Had one point, a pro abortion lady tried to go on to the mobile 374 00:24:27.769 --> 00:24:32.849 ultrasound unit and get a a mom off of there because we had had her 375 00:24:32.890 --> 00:24:34.410 on there too long and she wanted to go inside and get her half on 376 00:24:34.450 --> 00:24:37.970 a likeness. What in the world. So I call the police on her 377 00:24:37.130 --> 00:24:41.519 rather than, you know, in this kind of twisted version of turn the 378 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:42.960 other cheek. Obviously, I stood my ground and stood in front of the 379 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:45.640 door with letter. That's just my experience. It's a little bit of what 380 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.039 you're talking about. Share it real quick, Joanna, if you can. 381 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:55.470 A story of a person and who had changed their mind about abortion is for 382 00:24:55.589 --> 00:24:57.269 us, the the reality of it and that sort of thing. Yeah, 383 00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:02.109 there's so many. Also amazing what happens. I'm amazed when we go out 384 00:25:02.230 --> 00:25:03.390 there, just like you're saying earlier, I got me to you and you 385 00:25:03.430 --> 00:25:07.220 know, just gives you opportunities. You will save lives and change minds. 386 00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:11.140 And sometimes it's not immediate or every conversation, but there's so many, so 387 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:14.660 many opportunities to share the gospel. But there's just all kinds of funny situations. 388 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:15.740 I'll share one. Okay, funny one stands out in my mind. 389 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.490 There's this guy who's just been, you know, standing there for you know, 390 00:25:21.730 --> 00:25:23.809 meant twenty minutes, maybe thirty, just, you know, just going 391 00:25:23.809 --> 00:25:27.410 around in circles basically, and you know, we're trying to share everything we 392 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:32.329 can and, you know, with him and and he's just not having he 393 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:33.730 says, you know, you you're just trying to hurt women, you're just 394 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.640 making them feel like they're not seas. You know, you're well comparing this 395 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:40.440 the Holocaust and you're just, you know, trying to feed up women, 396 00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:42.599 basically. And we're trying to tell him that's all we're doing and explain to 397 00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:45.640 him, but he just won't hear any of it. So then here walks 398 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:51.309 along this young woman who doesn't look the difficult part of a pro life or 399 00:25:51.349 --> 00:25:55.190 definitely not just coming here smoking, you know, and it's just real LAXA 400 00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:59.710 daisically and she's standing there and just listens for a few minutes. I've no 401 00:25:59.710 --> 00:26:02.109 idea what she's gonna say, and then after a few minutes, she says, 402 00:26:02.589 --> 00:26:07.779 you know, I'm a woman and I don't feel like they're trying to 403 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:08.859 tell me a not see like now. I'm not say. I feel like 404 00:26:10.019 --> 00:26:11.660 they're just really trying to say that abortion is wrong. And she says and 405 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.180 I've had an abortion and I don't feel like they're condemning me. I feel 406 00:26:15.220 --> 00:26:19.210 like they're just trying to show what it is and many's validation. That's no 407 00:26:19.369 --> 00:26:22.970 words, like, you know, for out of the words of its money, 408 00:26:22.970 --> 00:26:26.329 when God just brings us situations like that, I could school are more 409 00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:29.529 all the time. But yeah, it's amazing. Have you, Lincoln, 410 00:26:29.609 --> 00:26:34.319 share a story of a situation where you've had to stay in your ground and 411 00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.519 maybe you had to get the law involved so that people understand, like what 412 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.319 you guys are dealing with? It's not that you're just there again to make 413 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.119 people ain't you going to spur conversations and you're there in a very nice and 414 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:51.349 approachable demeanor, but I'm sure you've been, maybe not physically attack maybe, 415 00:26:51.430 --> 00:26:53.150 I don't know. We've we we see, we've seen just about it. 416 00:26:53.309 --> 00:26:56.750 Well, I don't want to say everything because something will always play out that 417 00:26:56.869 --> 00:27:00.750 surprises you. And Yeah, we had a situation where we were at a 418 00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:06.779 very liberal campus in here in North Carolina and and this kind of goes along 419 00:27:06.779 --> 00:27:10.420 to with the theme of just, I guess, the ants that we feel 420 00:27:10.539 --> 00:27:15.460 where the news media is not fair to our cause and will often misconstrue things 421 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:18.170 or paint things a certain way that those who observe the events did not observe. 422 00:27:18.809 --> 00:27:22.369 And we're at this campus and we had a group of people that were 423 00:27:22.849 --> 00:27:26.769 kind of the ANTIFA types where they were just very in your face, they 424 00:27:26.809 --> 00:27:30.680 were very brash. There were about three or four them in particular that would 425 00:27:30.680 --> 00:27:34.240 just follow our people around and just kind of make jeering comments at them or 426 00:27:34.319 --> 00:27:38.519 like make demeaning comments on our even our physical appearance, or just things that 427 00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.240 were very personal where you could tell they were trying to get under our sore. 428 00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:44.750 Non Scientific argument, not at all. They did not want to talk, 429 00:27:44.789 --> 00:27:47.470 they did not want to engage, they just wanted to intimidate. And 430 00:27:47.589 --> 00:27:51.509 we had this one young woman who was a black young woman and she was 431 00:27:51.589 --> 00:27:55.390 a specially antagonistic like to me for a while where she was just getting in 432 00:27:55.430 --> 00:27:59.420 my face and and doing all these things to try to intimidate, and then 433 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:00.819 she would she would beat on one person, then she would go to the 434 00:28:00.859 --> 00:28:06.740 next person and just be saying things that were silly or derogatory or unkind as 435 00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:10.500 she would just be following people around. Well, at one point she ended 436 00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.490 up grabbing a piece of paper that has some sensitive information on it from one 437 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:18.970 of our volunteers and she refused to give it back. She just took it 438 00:28:18.130 --> 00:28:22.650 just brazenly, as if she thought she could get away with it and that 439 00:28:22.690 --> 00:28:23.849 we weren't we were just going to Keel over and let her do that. 440 00:28:25.529 --> 00:28:27.880 And so I think it was, I guess it was me. I probably 441 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:30.279 called the police honor and told them that, you know, this was going 442 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.720 on. Yeah, and the officers came over there and, a long story 443 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:38.119 short, she at first denied that she had done it and then she tried 444 00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.710 to hand the piece of paper off to want of her cohorts and you know, 445 00:28:41.789 --> 00:28:47.269 obviously that was kind of literally getting caught randhanded here and so the the 446 00:28:47.390 --> 00:28:49.390 officers, they had her turn around, they arrested her, I think, 447 00:28:49.390 --> 00:28:55.779 for Larceny. And just little little side detail the story, like the officer 448 00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:57.940 that arrested her was a black female officer, yeah, as well, who 449 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:02.859 put the handcuffs on her wrists and they took her away and I think she 450 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:04.619 spent just a little bit of time, you know, and detention there for 451 00:29:04.740 --> 00:29:08.700 that. But later on, when the news article came out about it, 452 00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:14.609 it was kind of portraying it. As you know, black woman gets arrested. 453 00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:17.250 You know, become was of pro life people. It was something to 454 00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:19.369 the effect that, oh, this PORP and they were quoting her something. 455 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:23.009 She get tweeted about how her risk hurt and how she had been detained against 456 00:29:23.009 --> 00:29:26.359 her will for all these hours and and the whole you're reading this whole story 457 00:29:26.519 --> 00:29:30.359 thinking, Oh, she's the victim and she's this poor innocent black woman who's 458 00:29:30.400 --> 00:29:36.319 been treated unfairly. And I mean we it was just bizarre and ironic because 459 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.910 it became something where it wasn't about the facts and it wasn't about what the 460 00:29:40.990 --> 00:29:45.190 people around observed. It was about creating her to be the victim, even 461 00:29:45.190 --> 00:29:48.670 though she was the one and like, very actively and aggressively harassing all of 462 00:29:48.789 --> 00:29:52.339 us, including volunteers on our staff who are also black, like she was 463 00:29:52.420 --> 00:29:56.140 just harassing everybody. But the news didn't cover that, they didn't say that, 464 00:29:56.299 --> 00:29:59.660 and so that's just one of many instance is where we've had to stand 465 00:29:59.700 --> 00:30:02.900 our ground and and part of it is showing them that we will not be 466 00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:04.460 bullied. Like we're out there. We want to be kind, we want 467 00:30:04.460 --> 00:30:07.769 to be civil, we want you to have your rights to free speech. 468 00:30:07.769 --> 00:30:11.890 We've believed in the value and dignity of every human being, regardless of their 469 00:30:11.930 --> 00:30:15.849 race and, obviously, their level of development, but that doesn't mean will 470 00:30:15.930 --> 00:30:18.450 allow someone to bully us or think that they can just do that kind of 471 00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:21.960 thing and get away, because it sends a message that, oh, Christians 472 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.160 and pro life people are weak and if you just intimidate them and harass them 473 00:30:25.200 --> 00:30:29.359 enough, they'll either capitulate or they'll just go yeah, well, like what 474 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:33.559 you said when you said it's not really about us, it's not about US 475 00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.509 standing our ground for our sake. Yeah, but it's these babies. You 476 00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:41.950 know, I believe, and you probably have stories to share, maybe even 477 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:45.430 as many stories as you have to year of people being angry and people you 478 00:30:45.549 --> 00:30:48.670 know, and all of that of moms that have even chosen life based on 479 00:30:48.029 --> 00:30:51.299 what you guys are doing. I mean, in one sense, you guys 480 00:30:51.339 --> 00:30:55.460 are getting them and planting those seeds of truth about abortion before they get to 481 00:30:55.539 --> 00:30:57.460 us, to the abortion center. So I know God uses you guys in 482 00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:00.980 that way. It's not surprising, they lincoln that the news media wasn't on 483 00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:06.369 your side and wasn't, you know, speaking positively about and and that's constantly 484 00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:08.410 why we insist have to go around them and that's why we go to the 485 00:31:08.450 --> 00:31:11.849 streets, to busy intersections, to college campuses, two places where we can 486 00:31:12.250 --> 00:31:15.410 interact and and that's really part of the beauty of the pictures to is that, 487 00:31:15.529 --> 00:31:18.400 you know, we've talked about and we love the stories about the conversations, 488 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:23.359 but you know, for every ten minute, thirty minute conversation I have 489 00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:26.880 with an individual, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people walking 490 00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.400 by that I'm only one person and we only have so many people on our 491 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.190 team and we can't directly engage each of them. But at the very least 492 00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:37.990 they took a few seconds. They looked over to see what the commotion was 493 00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:41.349 about, and they have been reached in a way that is powerful and perhaps 494 00:31:41.349 --> 00:31:45.109 even more powerful sometimes than even our words. Yeah, yeah, well, 495 00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:47.460 I know. One of the things, it's kind that I wanted to get 496 00:31:47.539 --> 00:31:51.259 to and want you guys to talk about is some of the receptivity. It's 497 00:31:51.339 --> 00:31:55.180 no surprise again, that pro abortion people, especially those who in majority, 498 00:31:55.220 --> 00:31:57.099 I would say, on the college campus, would probably identify maybe as pro 499 00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:00.140 choice. where. I could be wrong about that, I guess, depending 500 00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.730 on the campus. Either way, it's no surprise you'd be rejected there. 501 00:32:04.250 --> 00:32:07.130 Of course, the media and rejection that's there. But what about with then 502 00:32:07.930 --> 00:32:13.410 the church? What about those who are on the college campus who claim to 503 00:32:13.490 --> 00:32:17.319 be Christians? What's your receptivity there? I know it's mixed, but is 504 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.400 there a negative reaction and if so, how do you respond to that? 505 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:29.200 Yeah, that's a big and really important question and I think it's similar, 506 00:32:29.359 --> 00:32:30.950 I would say, in terms of the receptivity. As far as you know, 507 00:32:31.190 --> 00:32:35.589 are we wanted or allowed to come in? And that's a No. 508 00:32:35.950 --> 00:32:37.549 I mean, yeah, what we would need to write if this was being 509 00:32:37.589 --> 00:32:42.269 taught in churches, schools, homes, you know, but so many people 510 00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:45.180 don't even know we had a kid last year at our youth camp who's in 511 00:32:45.220 --> 00:32:49.380 middle school and he was a you know, obviously sent there by a Christian 512 00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:52.500 family, pro life family, and he was leaning pro choice. And he 513 00:32:52.579 --> 00:32:53.539 says this and he says but after this, no way, you know, 514 00:32:53.740 --> 00:32:57.859 but he's never been taught. And so people anyway, there's a lot there. 515 00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:02.289 But there's I think the establishment of just kind of the business of the 516 00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:06.450 church can kind of in the status quote, can sometimes take precedence over. 517 00:33:06.890 --> 00:33:09.170 Okay, what's actually important, and we just this is always what we've business 518 00:33:09.170 --> 00:33:13.160 as usual, what we've done, and so something to come in and disrupt 519 00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.039 that and we're not sure and this is controversial and we're going to alienate people 520 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:19.920 and maybe this isn't even, you know, about the Gospel. So maybe 521 00:33:19.960 --> 00:33:22.440 we should just kind of avoid it and not talk about it. And then 522 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:28.869 so when when we do or we try to meet with pastors or it's a 523 00:33:28.910 --> 00:33:30.990 lot of times called shoulder or, you know, universities. They don't want 524 00:33:31.029 --> 00:33:34.269 us, but but it's amazing. So then when you do kind of go 525 00:33:34.390 --> 00:33:37.789 around that leadership, if they don't want to talk to us, then the 526 00:33:37.269 --> 00:33:42.819 students. You know, we've been to a seminary recently and and they're, 527 00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.339 you know, I'm sure, teaching a lot of great things, but we're 528 00:33:45.339 --> 00:33:47.059 not welcome. And so, but then the students, you know, I 529 00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:52.859 have this conversation with one of the students here comes by and he's wrestling with 530 00:33:52.539 --> 00:33:55.329 even just what he's supposed to do as a he used to be as he 531 00:33:55.369 --> 00:33:59.369 said, he used to do street preaching out with and he's an NC state 532 00:34:00.890 --> 00:34:05.650 and you know, he's asking me all these questions that I'm confounded that I 533 00:34:05.690 --> 00:34:07.130 am having answer for him. I'm so grateful for the opportunity, but literally, 534 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:08.769 he is, you know, and don't go to heaven any way. 535 00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:13.119 And is it something we really should stand up about and people just need to 536 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.880 hear the Gospel. And this is so, I think, just evident in 537 00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:21.199 of what of what the situation is and what people are they're not being taught 538 00:34:21.280 --> 00:34:23.909 to deal with the actual issues of today's society and culture. And you know, 539 00:34:24.110 --> 00:34:25.989 and he says, you know, by the end a conversation I feel 540 00:34:25.989 --> 00:34:28.510 like God is, you know, using you to speak to me, like 541 00:34:28.590 --> 00:34:30.949 I need to stand up and I need to see up against he's like admitting, 542 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:32.989 like I'm afraid to confront anything in our culture, even like ever say 543 00:34:34.030 --> 00:34:36.949 that homosexuality is wrong or anything like abortions a guide. I do need to 544 00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:38.619 see end up. And you know, there was another woman that same place 545 00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:42.340 who came by and she said she was angry at first. She said, 546 00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:44.619 I know they warned us, you were they're going to be pictures here. 547 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.460 But I she's I I'm a Christian, but you know, I've had an 548 00:34:46.460 --> 00:34:50.739 abortion and this is offensive to me and this is hurtful, and I just 549 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.449 calmly, gently explain to her like I'm so sorry that you know whenever you 550 00:34:53.489 --> 00:34:58.250 went through and but you know, obviously you you know. She said she 551 00:34:58.369 --> 00:35:00.329 regretted it, but I said, obviously you reat that. Do you really 552 00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:02.969 not want other people have the chance to not have to go through that and 553 00:35:04.090 --> 00:35:06.369 just to be able to see the truth? You know? And and one 554 00:35:06.369 --> 00:35:09.119 of ourvolunteers asked her and would you have gone through, would you have gotten 555 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:13.239 an abortion if you had seen these pictures? And she said probably not. 556 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:15.920 And so no one had ever told her and you know. And so I 557 00:35:16.039 --> 00:35:17.840 was able to offer her, I was able to pray with her. Jell 558 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.440 me pray for her. I said, how do you ever feel like you've 559 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:23.510 gotten healing and, you know, forgiveness for what you what how we did 560 00:35:23.630 --> 00:35:27.909 and what happened, and she said no, it's never been address. I 561 00:35:27.909 --> 00:35:29.710 said, well, you know they're there are resources. You know, when 562 00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:31.429 I gave her the post abortion healing Info and she said can I have another 563 00:35:31.469 --> 00:35:34.429 one? I have a friend who had just got an abortion. I'm like 564 00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:36.860 yeah, of course. So it's just yeah, it's just sad to me, 565 00:35:36.940 --> 00:35:38.820 I guess, when the stuff is not being addressed, and I could 566 00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:43.699 tell you story after story of things that I'm shocked by that just this is 567 00:35:43.780 --> 00:35:47.179 not dealt with in the church. Yeah, and there's this this mindset that 568 00:35:47.420 --> 00:35:52.570 we encounter so much among even like just very evangelical circles that doctrinally and otherwise 569 00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:57.769 I would typically associate with, where we kind of think that, you know, 570 00:35:57.849 --> 00:36:00.570 obviously we recognize that we want to change people's heart through the Gospel and 571 00:36:00.690 --> 00:36:04.679 not just change their external behavior, and so, you know, I get 572 00:36:04.679 --> 00:36:08.320 that and I sympathize with that, but we kind of create, you know, 573 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.440 as a maybe a faulty outflow of that is that, okay, we 574 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.400 don't need to actually be concerned about justice, we don't need to be concerned 575 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:21.190 about matters of physical life and death, because we just need to preach the 576 00:36:21.269 --> 00:36:23.789 Gospel to people. We just need to only share that and not really worry 577 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:27.630 about you know, because we think that abortion will kind of take care of 578 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:30.989 itself or racism will take care of itself if we're just doing evangelization. And 579 00:36:31.389 --> 00:36:36.139 I think that's faulty on two fronts. One, you know, just biblically, 580 00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:37.900 you look at the fact that God does care about justice, that God 581 00:36:38.019 --> 00:36:43.059 does care about how we treat our neighbor in terms of their actual physical needs 582 00:36:43.099 --> 00:36:46.849 as well as their eternal need for salvation. The parable of the Good Samaritan 583 00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:52.889 and Luke Ten I. It's really revealing that Jesus uses that as a example 584 00:36:52.050 --> 00:36:55.969 for the fulfilling the greatest command to love your neighbor as yourself. Yeah, 585 00:36:57.010 --> 00:37:00.250 the second commandment. And you know, you look at that parable and it's 586 00:37:00.289 --> 00:37:07.599 almost telling that the person that Jesus holds up as the hero didn't, at 587 00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:08.920 least in the story. There wasn't any sense of like, you know, 588 00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.159 giving here's the the center's prayer, Here's, you know, how to have 589 00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:15.230 peace with God and here's how you can, you know, go to here's 590 00:37:15.230 --> 00:37:17.750 a church you can go to. Know, he saw that there was a 591 00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:22.710 physical, tangible need that his neighbor had that was literally a life and death 592 00:37:22.829 --> 00:37:25.670 need and he stepped in and intervened and ministered to that need, and Jesus 593 00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:29.909 holds that up as the example. Yeah, and so then historically you see 594 00:37:29.949 --> 00:37:34.340 people like a missionary, so many people. You See Amy Carmichael, Alice, 595 00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:37.099 see Lee Harris, who's one not as well known. She was a 596 00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:42.260 missionary to the Congo and the urban nineteen hundreds, sent from from Britain and 597 00:37:43.179 --> 00:37:46.170 when she got down there she's doing her evangelization, but she also becomes aware 598 00:37:46.210 --> 00:37:53.889 of a situation where the Belgian basically the Belgian king, has people who are 599 00:37:54.570 --> 00:38:01.039 subjugating the local population to essentially be forced labor for rubber production, because rubber 600 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.920 at that time was a very important commodity in the world. And they are 601 00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:12.239 literally threatening these people with death, with like maiming them and like actually dismembering 602 00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.829 hands and arms and feet. And she goes on this campaign to show the 603 00:38:15.909 --> 00:38:21.750 pictures. She took a lot of pictures documenting the injustices against the Congolesee. 604 00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:25.550 Yeah, and through that was able to eventually put international pressure on the king 605 00:38:25.590 --> 00:38:30.420 of Belgium to treat the people humanely and to no longer force them into that. 606 00:38:31.059 --> 00:38:35.219 But she did that as an outgrowth of her walk of faith as a 607 00:38:35.380 --> 00:38:37.539 Christian minister and it wasn't something where she just said, Oh, let's just 608 00:38:37.619 --> 00:38:42.489 preach the Gospel and just kind of allow that to you know, people will 609 00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:45.449 kind of put the puzzle together on their own. Yeah, she went directly 610 00:38:45.489 --> 00:38:49.329 and said no, these are literal people who are dying and suffering and as 611 00:38:49.369 --> 00:38:52.769 a Christian I should be on the forefront of the fight to in this injustice 612 00:38:52.809 --> 00:38:57.000 and not just leave that, you know, passively, to someone else. 613 00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:00.119 Absolutely it's a good example. I mean, you know I've had conversation, 614 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:02.280 I'm sure you guys have to, of pro choice, pro abortion, people 615 00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:07.840 who kind of want to equate us with like the Christ I've been called the 616 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.750 Christian teliband before. You Christians, you know you're nothing but the problem. 617 00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:15.789 But Will you start to recount human history and you look at injustice? As 618 00:39:15.829 --> 00:39:20.469 you know, Chinese footbinding comes to mind, where they would bind up little 619 00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:22.590 girl's feet so they would stay small because that was attractive to the men. 620 00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:29.940 It was Christians that got that injustice. That's right removed from that society, 621 00:39:30.739 --> 00:39:35.260 even if I forget what it's called, but it's in India where if a 622 00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.329 guy, a man, husband was to die, his wife would actually be 623 00:39:38.369 --> 00:39:44.010 burned alive with him. That was a practice in India and Christians got that. 624 00:39:44.130 --> 00:39:46.650 So that's you bring that up. Is just another example. And certainly 625 00:39:46.730 --> 00:39:52.809 as Christians we have our flaws and the Lord is sanctifying and making us more 626 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.880 like Jesus every day and then. But it is Christians who do and who 627 00:39:55.920 --> 00:40:00.960 are called to confront evil. And you know, as far as this in 628 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:05.920 the last few minutes that we have, as far as appealing to Christians who 629 00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.510 might say something to the effect of yet understand what you're doing, and I 630 00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:13.070 see you know, people have been the minds have been changed, the Gospel 631 00:40:13.110 --> 00:40:15.670 has been shared, babies even been saved, but still yet. I don't 632 00:40:15.670 --> 00:40:20.630 think it's appropriate to show people victim images. What would you say to that 633 00:40:20.789 --> 00:40:24.179 person who is open, who is, you know, like they're pushing back 634 00:40:24.179 --> 00:40:28.699 because they feel like you're being judgmental and you're being whatever, but they're willing 635 00:40:28.739 --> 00:40:30.460 to hear. What would you say to that person? I would say I 636 00:40:30.539 --> 00:40:37.769 would just lovingly and as a brother challenge their question in a sense, and 637 00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:43.369 just ask why wouldn't you want to show the victims? Because you know, 638 00:40:43.489 --> 00:40:46.210 we know abortions wrong and we know, you know, hopefully for a lot 639 00:40:46.250 --> 00:40:50.760 of our friends listen to this podcast, that this is something that's happening, 640 00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.199 that this these are real people that are being killed every day. And you 641 00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:58.039 know, by God's grace, you know, and only by his race, 642 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.880 we are in the state of mind to where we've been regenerated, were open 643 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.389 to the truth. We're seeking that and we're sensitive to it. But for 644 00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:08.469 people who do not, are not there yet, there needs to be that 645 00:41:08.590 --> 00:41:13.389 hard dose of reality and it really does take seeing. You know, we're 646 00:41:13.429 --> 00:41:16.469 told in the FESIANS, I think it's eleven, to have no part in 647 00:41:16.510 --> 00:41:22.099 the unfruitful work of artness, but instead to expose them. Yeah, and 648 00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:25.179 that is our calling as Christians. And you know, you can look biblically 649 00:41:25.219 --> 00:41:29.980 at how you know even the crucifixion we were talking about before the podcast, 650 00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:35.090 that that was apart from the man, the side of man's involvement, and 651 00:41:35.250 --> 00:41:39.050 it from God's perspective. This was ordained by him and it was a it 652 00:41:39.170 --> 00:41:45.250 was a bloody public spectacle, it was something that visually showed in a very 653 00:41:45.329 --> 00:41:50.440 public way that this is the horror of your sin, this is the ugliness 654 00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:52.280 of your sin, but then also this is the love of God, this 655 00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:58.000 is how much he was willing to sacrifice and go through on behalf to reconcile 656 00:41:58.039 --> 00:42:00.800 you to him. Yeah, and so that's important, I think. And 657 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.349 then just also historically, you look at a lot of people you know who 658 00:42:04.389 --> 00:42:07.630 probably listen here maybe watch the film amazing grace. They're familiar with William Wilberforce, 659 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:14.630 Thomas Clarkston. You look at the ending of segregation and just how the 660 00:42:14.789 --> 00:42:20.179 marches that Dr King used were designed to make people uncomfortable with racism and force 661 00:42:20.260 --> 00:42:24.300 them to see peaceful protesters who were being attacked, you know, by police 662 00:42:24.340 --> 00:42:28.260 when they were not rioting, they were not looting, they were just trying 663 00:42:28.300 --> 00:42:31.050 to march and draw attention to how they were being treated unfairly. And so 664 00:42:31.090 --> 00:42:36.210 I would just challenge anyone who isn't sure about this look at history, look 665 00:42:36.210 --> 00:42:38.170 at the Bible, look at the fact that, yes, this is uncomfortable 666 00:42:38.210 --> 00:42:42.449 and I will freely admit that to some degree you go out there and it 667 00:42:42.530 --> 00:42:45.519 never quite feels like, oh, this is easy this is something that I 668 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:47.920 enjoy doing. I love showing abortion photos to people. It's like, no, 669 00:42:49.000 --> 00:42:53.679 I don't. But the victims ultimately have no voice. They are completely 670 00:42:53.800 --> 00:43:00.190 dependent upon someone who is not themselves in danger caring enough to step up as 671 00:43:00.230 --> 00:43:02.710 if it was their own life and to speak out and to be a voice 672 00:43:02.869 --> 00:43:07.710 on their behalf. And so if there's a better method than showing the victim 673 00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:09.510 images, I am all for it and I will put my signs down and 674 00:43:09.670 --> 00:43:14.059 Jump On that bandwagon in a heartbeat. But yeah, I think it would 675 00:43:14.059 --> 00:43:20.659 be intellectually and spiritually very challenging to to come up with the case that the 676 00:43:20.699 --> 00:43:23.659 victim images are not effective, even if they are something that causes people to 677 00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:28.449 be hangry. Yeah, yeah, a lot of our gage as American Christians 678 00:43:28.690 --> 00:43:31.690 is what something makes me feel like, what I think, what I feel, 679 00:43:32.329 --> 00:43:37.650 and it's just not that's the the whole point of this podcast, not 680 00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:40.840 just this episode, but the thing from from beginning to end, is that 681 00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:46.400 we can't base what we do as prolifers on how we feel and what society 682 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.719 says. It has to be founded in the word of God. When we 683 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:57.030 look at particular behavior ministry, calling methodology, it should always be. What 684 00:43:57.269 --> 00:44:00.510 does the Bible say? What does the Scripture say? And you know, 685 00:44:00.550 --> 00:44:04.110 I've had people try to argue about and then we use as sub what counsels? 686 00:44:04.150 --> 00:44:07.750 We use victim images, we use them in our brochures and we use 687 00:44:07.789 --> 00:44:09.579 them if we display them. We don't always, but when we do we 688 00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:14.380 display them away from the areas of engagement with the mom who's abortion minded, 689 00:44:14.619 --> 00:44:16.739 because it just tends to be more of a cordial conversation, or at least 690 00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:21.659 more of an engaging conversation. But I do see them to be effective. 691 00:44:21.659 --> 00:44:23.369 When I had I've had Christians tell me, and even they are affective, 692 00:44:23.369 --> 00:44:27.050 we shouldn't use them because they're offensive, and I'm like, well, chapter 693 00:44:27.170 --> 00:44:30.690 in verse, because the Bible tells me that God is certainly into displaying victim 694 00:44:30.730 --> 00:44:35.329 images. Jesus Christ is the ultimate example. We see that through the the 695 00:44:35.530 --> 00:44:38.920 New Testament of the Old Testament, how God shows images. We are visual 696 00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:44.480 creatures and God, God, capitalizes on that, so to speak, to 697 00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:47.039 bring certain realities to our attention. So I appreciate what you guys are doing. 698 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.480 Appreciate you guys being out there. It's uncomfortable, I know, and 699 00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:55.030 you know what's kind of like what Jesus called us to, though. What 700 00:44:55.110 --> 00:44:59.230 did he say? Take up your couch and lay on it with me, 701 00:45:00.550 --> 00:45:02.389 he says. Take up your cross and follow me. It's a cross to 702 00:45:02.469 --> 00:45:06.389 bear going out to these college campuses. It's across to bear. You know, 703 00:45:06.590 --> 00:45:08.500 it is the same with what you do and just how you know you're 704 00:45:08.539 --> 00:45:12.860 out there ministering on the front lines and it's not comfortable and there's that happiness 705 00:45:12.900 --> 00:45:15.059 of knowing that the woman going in like at you know, it's what we 706 00:45:15.099 --> 00:45:17.099 do. At least we can plan a seed a lot of the time, 707 00:45:17.179 --> 00:45:21.019 and we do and we see lives say from that. But I know there's, 708 00:45:21.179 --> 00:45:23.289 you know, certain heaviness when you know that this is the final chance 709 00:45:23.369 --> 00:45:27.809 for that baby. So I commend you guys for what you're doing and appreciate 710 00:45:27.849 --> 00:45:30.289 your your similar mindset because, you know, you know with the whole thing 711 00:45:30.289 --> 00:45:35.369 about it being offensive and how Christians kind of don't have a category in their 712 00:45:35.409 --> 00:45:37.480 mind for things that might be offensive. But maybe that's good, you know. 713 00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:42.480 You look. You mentioned the gospels and how Jesus himself was very offensive 714 00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:47.039 to some people and he knew how to handle being graceful with being truthful and 715 00:45:47.079 --> 00:45:51.949 sometimes he had to call things out firmly as they were. And you know, 716 00:45:52.070 --> 00:45:54.510 it was him who who said of our walk as his followers that a 717 00:45:55.070 --> 00:45:59.230 servant is not greater than his master. If they hate me, they will 718 00:45:59.269 --> 00:46:01.150 hate you also. If they persecuted me, they will prosecute you also, 719 00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.019 and we just have to have a category for that that, even in the 720 00:46:05.059 --> 00:46:07.420 United States, with all of our freedom and all of our prosperity, that 721 00:46:08.179 --> 00:46:12.860 we are called to suffer like the master at times, and if persecutions what 722 00:46:12.980 --> 00:46:15.340 it is, then that's our road and we have to accept it because that's 723 00:46:15.340 --> 00:46:20.329 the road he went on before us. Yeah, that's good. Well, 724 00:46:20.369 --> 00:46:22.610 guys, I'm going to wrap this thing up, but I do appreciate you 725 00:46:22.769 --> 00:46:27.489 guys coming and sharing. Appreciate your heart to serve, appreciate, you know 726 00:46:28.130 --> 00:46:30.570 the get, the fact that you guys are sharing the Gospel and what you're 727 00:46:30.610 --> 00:46:37.480 doing, but also confronting this evil and just keep doing it, keep serving 728 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:43.400 the Lord and absolutely friend. He use exposing evil and by God's grace and 729 00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:45.239 we'll see abortion come to an end in our nation. I hope so, 730 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:47.590 and if it doesn't happen, it won't be because we didn't do it. 731 00:46:47.630 --> 00:46:52.230 Dares. Yeah, yeah, Amen, you've got the good work. Thank 732 00:46:52.269 --> 00:46:54.469 you. Yes, I God's grace. Yeah, yeah, well, I 733 00:46:54.510 --> 00:47:00.150 appreciate you guys who've tuned into this podcast and just hope that you guys will 734 00:47:00.150 --> 00:47:02.139 share this podcast with others. If you want to get in touch with these 735 00:47:02.179 --> 00:47:07.659 guys, it is. What's the whims? Go to abortion no dot Org. 736 00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:09.980 Okays, our website and, as you could probably expect, it does 737 00:47:10.059 --> 00:47:15.219 have some graphic content on there that's nevertheless challenging and needed, but you can 738 00:47:15.260 --> 00:47:17.409 go there and you can touch with us. Okay. So abortion no dot 739 00:47:17.409 --> 00:47:21.409 Org can in touch with these guys and if you want to get in touch 740 00:47:21.449 --> 00:47:24.170 with me, you can email me at d parks, at cities for lifecom. 741 00:47:24.409 --> 00:47:28.210 You can go on our website, CHARLOTTE DOT cities for Life Dot Org. 742 00:47:28.929 --> 00:47:40.440 And until next time, God bless give for love, give me our 743 00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:52.829 loft for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too 744 00:47:53.070 --> 00:47:55.309 precious. And some you