Is IVF Pro-Life?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.160 I repented before God like I did. I just didn't know. I could 2 00:00:03.200 --> 00:00:06.000 have known. I mean it's my fault. I could have known. I 3 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:10.189 could have looked into it a little more, but again, I just believed 4 00:00:10.429 --> 00:00:15.029 kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times, not 5 00:00:15.189 --> 00:00:20.870 a good idea. I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, 6 00:00:21.429 --> 00:00:27.219 and me Lord, I am yours, I am yours. I'm welcome 7 00:00:27.260 --> 00:00:32.579 to the Gospel Center Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designed to equip, encourage 8 00:00:32.740 --> 00:00:36.929 and challenge you in pro life ministry and always were the focus on the Gospel. 9 00:00:37.130 --> 00:00:48.090 Stay tuned, I felt show Passish, touch your heart. Use Me. 10 00:00:51.399 --> 00:00:54.960 Welcome back to the Gospel centered pro life podcast. Appreciate you guys joining 11 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:58.679 us and we always encourage you guys to share this podcast episode, share this 12 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.000 podcast and all of the episodes that we produce with your friends, family members, 13 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:07.469 share it on social media and, yeah, just get the word out. 14 00:01:07.989 --> 00:01:11.390 We'd be very appreciative if you would do that. And the whole goal 15 00:01:11.430 --> 00:01:18.579 of this podcast is not to promote ourselves and make ourselves feel or look important, 16 00:01:19.939 --> 00:01:23.739 but to equip you and to challenge you. You guys who are listening, 17 00:01:23.340 --> 00:01:29.579 mostly folks that are listening or people who are involved in sidewalk out reach 18 00:01:29.659 --> 00:01:33.890 ministry at their local abortion center. We get a lot of interactions from people 19 00:01:33.969 --> 00:01:38.650 and questions from people, even some encouragement from folks. I just had someone 20 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:44.969 text me from southern California who asked me how was the duck? How did 21 00:01:44.969 --> 00:01:48.840 the duck taste? Oh dear. Yeah, that refers to one of our 22 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.439 last podcast right. Yeah, it was our episode where you talked about the 23 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.799 hooded Marganzer Duck. Hood. Isn't it a Gettin? Sir? Yeah, 24 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.959 I don't think they quite got the important message from that podcast. I say 25 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:04.790 got it. Yeah, but it was it was funny. It was something 26 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:09.789 that they actually latched onto there. So I didn't eat the hooded margins are 27 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:13.870 nook. It's still about here, swimming in our pond not far from where 28 00:02:13.870 --> 00:02:16.819 we're recording this podcast. Yeah, praise God. This podcast is not about 29 00:02:16.860 --> 00:02:23.219 ducks or eating ducks or anything like that, but it is about pro life 30 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:27.419 stuff in light of the Gospel, and so we hope to equip you guys 31 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:30.330 in this episode. That we're going to do is maybe a little outside of 32 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:36.090 our wheelhouse in the sense that we mostly focus on the outreach at abortion centers 33 00:02:36.729 --> 00:02:39.930 and and not on subjects like this. But we have done subjects like this 34 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:44.919 in the past. We've talked about birth control, we've talked about, I 35 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:50.560 don't know, other things more kind of like ideological things that have to do 36 00:02:50.680 --> 00:02:57.960 with pro life, the prolife message and our prolife conviction and it. We've 37 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:02.550 never really talked about IVF. Right. What is IVF stand for in vitro 38 00:03:02.990 --> 00:03:07.789 fertilization? Yeah, we can get into some definitions. I think we should 39 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:12.069 here in just a minute. Yeah, but just like to let you guys 40 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:15.379 know this. We're not doctors. I'm not, you know, I'm not 41 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:21.099 a scientist that deals with invader fertile fertilization or anything like that. But I 42 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:24.340 don't think that we have to be doctors or scientists to dig into a subject 43 00:03:25.060 --> 00:03:30.930 and to see what the Scripture says about that subject and to see our convictions. 44 00:03:30.969 --> 00:03:38.289 Are Our convictions in line with the repercussions in the things that surround this 45 00:03:38.409 --> 00:03:44.719 subject? So we're going to talk about in vitro fertilization and our goal is 46 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.280 not to offend you. If there are people that are out there that have 47 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:53.919 been involved in IVF and some way shape or form. Our goal is not 48 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:59.509 to offend you, but we're not apologetic either. I'm not going going to 49 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:03.270 apologize for the truths that we share. And if you're offended, maybe that 50 00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:10.259 offense is conviction that you need to repent, and so if that's the case, 51 00:04:10.900 --> 00:04:13.580 then repent. You don't need to repent to me, repent to Jesus. 52 00:04:14.500 --> 00:04:18.339 But I think this will be, more than anything, informative for you 53 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:21.939 guys that are listening. It probably for many of you will be a brand 54 00:04:23.019 --> 00:04:26.170 new subject, something not even on your radar. For some of you guys 55 00:04:26.250 --> 00:04:28.930 that who've been in this, this battle for a long time, we're going 56 00:04:28.930 --> 00:04:31.410 to tell you stuff you already know and you could probably add some more to 57 00:04:31.529 --> 00:04:34.850 this conversation and teach us something. So we're not going to pretend to be 58 00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:39.439 experts on this, but again, we are going to be consistent with what 59 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:44.360 the Bible says and with our convictions that life begins at conception. So with 60 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:48.120 that, let's jump into a Vicky define what we're talking about when we're talking 61 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.829 about IVF or in Vito fertilization. Yeah, okay, so this is import 62 00:04:53.910 --> 00:04:57.269 or in vitro. So it be true, and this, this is for 63 00:04:57.709 --> 00:05:03.069 infertile couples, couples who cannot naturally conceive a child, okay, for whatever 64 00:05:03.189 --> 00:05:11.899 reason. So this process is one in which sperm and over them, the 65 00:05:12.220 --> 00:05:15.540 egg of the woman the sperm of the man are collected combined. Yeah, 66 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:21.529 and the egg is fertilized outside of the woman's body and then replaced into the 67 00:05:21.610 --> 00:05:29.050 womb, right, and and hopefully then the pregnancy will proceed normally from that 68 00:05:29.209 --> 00:05:35.720 point. Yeah, sometimes the egg is the fertilized egg is implanted immediately into 69 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:43.040 the womb. Sometimes it it isn't immediate, in which case that egg is 70 00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:48.879 frozen. Yeah, and some people, especially in the past, would collect 71 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:55.470 many, many eggs and and have many frozen. kind of has a safe 72 00:05:55.829 --> 00:06:00.949 safety net. Yeah, so, which causes all kinds of problems which we're 73 00:06:00.990 --> 00:06:04.060 going to be talking about. Yeah. So essentially, the term that used 74 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:08.100 to be used, or a term that you heard, you know, when 75 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:10.740 I was a kid, was test tube babies, right. Ever heard of 76 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:13.899 that? Yes, and it's kind of that constant right. Yeah, the 77 00:06:14.019 --> 00:06:18.449 child is conceived in a laboratory, sperm and egg come together at that point 78 00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:25.930 that's a Zygoat and embryo, whatever technical term. But we would believe, 79 00:06:26.329 --> 00:06:30.170 and I think it's consistent with the Scripture and consistent with what we've said on 80 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:32.680 this podcast all along, that life begins at conception, right, and that 81 00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:39.319 when that egg and that sperm come together in that process called conception, a 82 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:45.040 unique life is created. Right, a unique human being has been created, 83 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.670 and it's at the earliest stage that human beings development. So the reason that 84 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:54.189 this came on our radar was actually we were on an airplane traveling to a 85 00:06:54.310 --> 00:06:59.509 conference and and a young lady who had had IVF sat down with one of 86 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:02.819 our team members and started talking about IVF, and then they came over to 87 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:06.420 talk to me because he had never really thought, I guess, a lot 88 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:11.939 about what she was saying. She was supporting it from a Christian world view. 89 00:07:12.019 --> 00:07:15.290 Yeah, which right away I struggled with. Right, I had not 90 00:07:15.449 --> 00:07:19.250 thought a lot about it honestly, until it but I knew I needed to 91 00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:23.689 do some research. I just feel it's important we can talk. We we 92 00:07:23.730 --> 00:07:28.850 should be consistent as pro life people. We should be consistent in our biblical 93 00:07:28.930 --> 00:07:32.439 and practical stance in all areas well, in all areas, but certainly in 94 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:39.360 all areas that that are pro life, areas which this is so what I 95 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:43.959 did is I pulled out, I read many articles, but one of them, 96 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:46.790 which we cite on an article that I wrote then, which is a 97 00:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.550 summary of some of the research that I found. Okay, and we I 98 00:07:50.670 --> 00:07:54.470 cite that article so that you can go read this Article Yourself, and I 99 00:07:54.589 --> 00:07:58.740 recommend that, at the very least, following this podcast, that everybody do 100 00:07:58.899 --> 00:08:03.779 that, read some of these articles we cite to come to your own conclusion. 101 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:07.339 And what we're going to do in this podcast is kind of present the 102 00:08:07.459 --> 00:08:11.139 facts as we uncover them, and then we're going to give a conclusion at 103 00:08:11.139 --> 00:08:16.529 the end that we think the evidence points us to from a biblical perspective. 104 00:08:16.689 --> 00:08:20.730 And also, you know, like I started out, if there's some repenting 105 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:24.050 that needs to take place, and that's that's what you need to do before 106 00:08:24.050 --> 00:08:31.919 the Lord, and don't let your feelings and don't let your experiences take you 107 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.000 away from it. What's actually true. Let's say that you have a child 108 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.029 that was conceived in IVF was the process by which you have that child? 109 00:08:43.830 --> 00:08:48.509 That child is human being loved by God, right life, your son, 110 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:54.750 your daughter, absolutely, and even though maybe if, as we shine some 111 00:08:54.830 --> 00:08:58.059 light on this, you start to realize this was not the best thing for 112 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:01.019 me to have been involved in. Doesn't devalue that child and it doesn't make 113 00:09:01.100 --> 00:09:07.059 you a horrible mother or father or whatever. We don't know what we don't 114 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:11.450 know. Yeah, you know, I'll share my story real quick, not 115 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.929 about IVF, but about birth control. We talked about birth control in the 116 00:09:15.970 --> 00:09:18.570 past and there are some forms of birth control that are not a board of 117 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:24.519 facient and there's some that are, and in the early stages of our marriage 118 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:26.519 we use some of the ones that were. Yeah, and I just I 119 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.879 didn't know I was doing what you do right. You have two kids and 120 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:35.200 use birth control, and I felt that's the way that certainly was an aortized 121 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:39.029 that, yeah, that that was actually could be in a bard up board 122 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:43.110 offacient. Yeah, and so I actually was exposed to cut like the truth 123 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:48.669 about birth control and and what it could potentially do through focus on the family. 124 00:09:48.710 --> 00:09:52.779 They actually had a an episode, yeah, and a guys sharing about 125 00:09:52.820 --> 00:09:58.019 this and I repented before God like I did. Just didn't know. I 126 00:09:58.100 --> 00:10:01.019 could have known. I mean it's my fault. I could have known. 127 00:10:01.059 --> 00:10:03.700 I could have looked into it a little more, but again, I just 128 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:09.129 believed kind of what everybody else was doing, which is not often times not 129 00:10:09.289 --> 00:10:13.169 a good idea. A long story short, we have eight kids now and 130 00:10:13.450 --> 00:10:18.330 obviously we we've come to know taken a different path, taken a different path, 131 00:10:18.769 --> 00:10:22.200 but I will say that I did repent before God. There was a 132 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.200 point in which I remember all my knees weeping before the Lord saying God, 133 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.840 I'm sorry. Now, I don't know in that process of my wife taking 134 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:37.549 the birth control, if babies were aborted from her body because of the effects 135 00:10:37.590 --> 00:10:41.389 of that stuff. I don't know. Yeah, and so I can't repent 136 00:10:41.429 --> 00:10:45.870 specifically and say I'm sorry, but I'm sorry that even open the door for 137 00:10:45.950 --> 00:10:50.700 this. I'm sorry that that's even a potential right. So that's my experience 138 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:54.059 with with birth control and I think it can be pretty similar to this. 139 00:10:54.259 --> 00:10:58.620 Actually, there are people that are listening that have been involved in IVF that 140 00:10:58.860 --> 00:11:01.700 you need to repent before God. Yeah, God's Merciful, God's kind. 141 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:07.210 The Lord is gracious and Compassionate, slow to anger and rich and loving kindness. 142 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:09.370 But if we just try to take our sin and we come to the 143 00:11:09.490 --> 00:11:13.730 knowledge of the truth and we try to just hide that in darkness, the 144 00:11:13.769 --> 00:11:16.409 Bible says that if we hide it in darkness, we're not we're not going 145 00:11:16.450 --> 00:11:20.159 to get the freeiveness of sin, but if we bring it to the light, 146 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.600 as he is in the lights. Is a first John Chapter one that 147 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.639 we have fellowship with one another in the blood of Jesus Christ, his son, 148 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.039 cleanses us from all sins. So bring your sin to the light. 149 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:33.590 Acknowledge before God doesn't necessarily mean you need to confess it before your whole church. 150 00:11:33.669 --> 00:11:35.309 Maybe you do. I don't know. However, the Lord leads you, 151 00:11:35.389 --> 00:11:39.710 but definitely, if God's convicting you in this, repent and know that 152 00:11:39.750 --> 00:11:45.309 he's gracious. Now I would say that Daniel Parks has given away his conclusion 153 00:11:46.190 --> 00:11:48.740 anyway, of where this is leading us. Yeah, but I will say 154 00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:52.580 that when I the first article I read in the first one I sight. 155 00:11:52.940 --> 00:11:56.700 So it'll be interesting for us to start with that. That was one that 156 00:11:56.820 --> 00:12:03.330 came to the conclusion that IVF in certain circumstances was at the cull for a 157 00:12:03.370 --> 00:12:07.490 Christian. Yeah, so it'll be. So one of the their first points 158 00:12:07.889 --> 00:12:09.889 is, and they they approached it from a biblical perspective. All right, 159 00:12:11.210 --> 00:12:15.090 overcoming fertility is pleasing to God. That was their first point. Go over 160 00:12:15.210 --> 00:12:18.799 and and you know there's countless examples in the Bible. Abraham and Sarah, 161 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:24.919 Jacob and Rachel's that Ryan Elizabeth are all couples that were infertile and and God 162 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.120 changed that. I do think that's key and the author did not bring that 163 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.549 up. The author did not bring the point up that it was God that 164 00:12:33.710 --> 00:12:39.669 brought about the change in those couples in fertility. A child was miraculously conceived 165 00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:45.740 through God's yeah, intervention. Wells, there's some passages and I know maybe 166 00:12:45.820 --> 00:12:48.539 you're not going there, but I will say they're several passages where it talks 167 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:54.580 about the Lord Closes, closed Sarah's womb, Lord closed Ragel Rachel's Womb. 168 00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:58.370 I believe in there's some other passages to talk about other women that God closed 169 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:03.409 her womb, and so you know there's that to God opens and closes the 170 00:13:03.490 --> 00:13:07.250 womb. So God has a has a purpose in infertility. Cruel. I 171 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:13.279 think that that's one of the hardest points for me and in discussing this topic, 172 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:18.000 I can't I have children. I didn't have I didn't struggle with in 173 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:22.879 fertility. Yeah, but I know I wanted a third child when my husband 174 00:13:22.879 --> 00:13:26.240 did not, and I remember during that time period the pain of that, 175 00:13:26.600 --> 00:13:28.549 yeah, of feeling I'm not going to have a child that I so desperately 176 00:13:28.669 --> 00:13:33.149 wanted. So, you know, from an emotional perspective I get it. 177 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:39.389 I get why these women do but but anyway, the and and so this 178 00:13:39.590 --> 00:13:41.980 article said, yes, but fertility is clearly pleasing to God. Yeah, 179 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:46.019 although he does close some women's wombs. But yeah, but I mean I 180 00:13:46.059 --> 00:13:50.259 don't think theologically we can dive into all of that because obviously there are things 181 00:13:50.299 --> 00:13:54.100 that are a result of the fall. Like I don't believe just because someone 182 00:13:54.139 --> 00:13:58.289 can't conceive a child that that necessarily means that God has closed their womb. 183 00:13:58.330 --> 00:14:01.409 Right. It could be other things going on that could be remedied. Bah, 184 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:07.529 you know, maybe things like IVF done in a moral, a morally 185 00:14:07.730 --> 00:14:09.960 acceptable way, which will dig into. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, 186 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.840 just want to miss that. Yeah, there are things that a result of 187 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:16.039 the fall that we just we don't know what, we don't really good point 188 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:20.159 and it's made a little bit later on in this article. So keep that 189 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:22.120 in your mind for when we hit there, because that's a really, really 190 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.269 important point. But the second one that the author points out is that modern 191 00:14:26.309 --> 00:14:31.509 medicine is a blessing and good in most cases, not all cases, but 192 00:14:31.629 --> 00:14:33.629 it most so. He said. We you know, in the same way 193 00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:37.980 that you'll take an aspirin for a headache, right well, that you're doing 194 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:43.700 something that is that is not technically natural, but it's made from the natural 195 00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:48.100 resources and ingenuity that God has given us, and that's the the author makes 196 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:52.370 the point that's the same with IVF. Okay, it's the ingenuity of the 197 00:14:52.450 --> 00:14:58.649 scientist and you're taking what is natural, that egg and sperm coming to together, 198 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:03.730 and you're just kind of helping them along in the using modern medicine for 199 00:15:03.809 --> 00:15:05.929 a good purpose. It's not for an evil purpose. At least that's I 200 00:15:05.970 --> 00:15:11.120 mean they're cante respect on that just a bit. Whereas in a headache we're 201 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:20.600 talking about alleviating a person's pain, in IVF and creating a child in the 202 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.950 test whom you're literally creating a whole other life. That, and that was 203 00:15:24.070 --> 00:15:28.830 my major gut feeling as I was talking to that woman, was this is 204 00:15:28.990 --> 00:15:37.100 a whole different level of intervention. The principles and the thought maybe sort of 205 00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:41.940 the things the same as we're talking about modern medicine, right, but yeah, 206 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.179 yeah, we're talking about the creation ire label of rights, of modern 207 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:50.210 rights, and that was exactly a human life. I agree. This is 208 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.049 exactly where my moment went. I couldn't always articulate it because I hadn't really 209 00:15:54.169 --> 00:15:58.529 ever thought about it really much. But but yeah, so that's a really 210 00:15:58.570 --> 00:16:02.330 good point. The third point that the author made was that they he the 211 00:16:02.370 --> 00:16:04.360 unborn child is human from conception. Of course, we all know that. 212 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:11.240 that. We know that that that is supported by scripture, and the reason 213 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.399 that the author brings that up is to point out that anything that destroys, 214 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:22.029 even from the earliest moment of conception, a human life, that that would 215 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:26.350 be wrong. So's he's he's building a case for why IVF is okay, 216 00:16:29.269 --> 00:16:32.860 but does want to approach a biblically. So the unborn life. We agree 217 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:36.139 with that. Yes, the unborn life is human from the moment of conception. 218 00:16:36.179 --> 00:16:40.980 Yeah, so that little fertilized ovum egg in the embryo in the Petrie 219 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:44.740 dish is a little human being that's about to be implanted in the womb. 220 00:16:45.019 --> 00:16:49.250 The fourth point he made was that children should only be conceived by, and 221 00:16:49.570 --> 00:16:53.889 born to married men and women. Yeah, and that's the precedent set up 222 00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:56.690 in the garden of Eden, right with Adam and eve. So we would 223 00:16:56.690 --> 00:17:00.639 agree on that point. To biblically, he's he's sound in that. So 224 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:07.000 he's saying again this is this is an article that says VF can be morally 225 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.599 okay, it can be. He's long as within these parameters, that's kind 226 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.309 of what he's building. He's exactly he's building the points within these parameters it 227 00:17:17.109 --> 00:17:18.509 can be okay. And then he's going to going to go on to tell 228 00:17:18.549 --> 00:17:22.829 us, when those parameters exist, where you find clinits with those parameters. 229 00:17:23.190 --> 00:17:27.750 And then so his conclusion, although he does go into some objections, which 230 00:17:27.789 --> 00:17:32.740 will go into next, but his conclusion was therefore it is morally good and 231 00:17:32.980 --> 00:17:37.059 in some cases, and he laid it right out, it's good if the 232 00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:42.420 embryos are not destroyed. No embryos destroyed in the process. It overcomes infertility, 233 00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:47.690 which he says was God's original plan. He also said from the fall 234 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:52.250 infertility was not the plan right in the garden of Eden. That was the 235 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:55.529 result of the fall, right, and and that the blessing of the children 236 00:17:55.650 --> 00:18:00.200 is brought to a married man and woman. If, if I VF achieves 237 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:06.559 those three major goals, then it's okay, that's good. That's where where 238 00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:10.880 he ended. Now it's objections, and it wasn't his objections. He said 239 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.869 this is what other people sit and I read a few articles that were actually 240 00:18:12.910 --> 00:18:17.670 on that side. Okay, of this discussion. So the first one is 241 00:18:17.750 --> 00:18:22.150 that it's not a natural process as God intended. Conception. Yeah, which 242 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:25.670 is obvious. No, it's not. Yeah, of course not, but 243 00:18:25.750 --> 00:18:33.299 it is. It is, it's helping a natural process. And and again 244 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:37.099 the people that excuse this objection as this is not about objection, will say, 245 00:18:37.099 --> 00:18:41.130 yeah, but there are other medical interventions, many that are not natural 246 00:18:41.210 --> 00:18:45.009 processes. Yeah, but we spied them. Yeah, we still do them. 247 00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:49.890 Yes, sure, I mean dying is the natural process. If someone's 248 00:18:49.930 --> 00:18:55.839 having a heart attack and you know, just let the natural process carry through, 249 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.559 we would not use the defibrillator anything. Right, correct. But again, 250 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:03.319 we're talking can kind of next level. We're not just talking about saving 251 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.599 a life, we're talking about literally creating a whole another, whole other life. 252 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.029 Back to your dying thing. When I was thinking through all of this, 253 00:19:10.150 --> 00:19:12.549 I thought, okay, what would be the that accurate parallel, though, 254 00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:19.109 with dying would be if you killed someone because they might die. To 255 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:22.990 me, that's again the same thing that you are you are taking a role 256 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:26.940 that belongs to God. Yeah, that's, I think, where we both 257 00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:32.859 kind of are struggling with this is this seems like it's God's role, not 258 00:19:33.019 --> 00:19:38.890 ours. Yeah. So the second objection is that sex and conception are wrongly 259 00:19:40.529 --> 00:19:44.410 separated. Yeah, this goes back to what you were saying earlier. At 260 00:19:44.490 --> 00:19:52.809 the fall there was no infertility. And what the the author that that counters 261 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.440 this objection says, yes, they are separated in the case of IVF, 262 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:03.519 but it isn't so much IDF that separates them. It's the fall that separated 263 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:10.910 them. The fall separated. For infertile couples, that's not what God intended. 264 00:20:11.589 --> 00:20:15.750 It's the fall that is separated, the act of sex with with right, 265 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.789 with conception. I thought that was an interesting yeah, because conception doesn't 266 00:20:18.789 --> 00:20:23.779 always happen. When I married couple as sex right right, and then for 267 00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:27.579 infertile couples it never happens. But that's not what God intended. It is 268 00:20:27.619 --> 00:20:33.220 the argument here is what is for I think, US, the most compelling 269 00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:36.690 right objection. This is the mazing the third one. Yeah, yeah, 270 00:20:36.930 --> 00:20:41.130 yeah, and that's that embryos are destroyed. Yeah, now, I learned 271 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:47.089 a lot as I was studying this. I thought that many, many eggs 272 00:20:47.369 --> 00:20:52.200 were collected and and then ultimately destroyed. The only used one or two and 273 00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:56.079 then the when the woman was to be clear, the collection of the eggs 274 00:20:56.119 --> 00:21:00.559 is not the issue. It's when the eggs are put together with a sperm 275 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.079 and conception is taken place. Right. So correct? Yes. Yes, 276 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:07.869 because those are the ones that are then frozen and and stored. Ultimately, 277 00:21:07.910 --> 00:21:11.309 if they're frozen, they need to be stored, and it used to be 278 00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:18.819 that doctors needed fifty sixty in order to have a seventeen percent success rate. 279 00:21:18.980 --> 00:21:22.339 So and then all the other ones were would die. They would just die. 280 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:26.940 So many were dying as a result of this process, and then many 281 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:30.660 of the stored ones were being destroyed. Yeah, that is no longer. 282 00:21:30.380 --> 00:21:34.970 In terms of collecting, that's no longer the case. The success rate is 283 00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:41.329 now about fifty percent, sometimes greater, and they only are harvesting one or 284 00:21:41.369 --> 00:21:44.490 two eggs. Yeah, for the women, because the success rate is so 285 00:21:44.529 --> 00:21:49.039 much better, so fewer embryos are dying, first of all in the process, 286 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:56.000 and most clinics apparently are committed to storing them as long as possil. 287 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:02.269 But the problem is that people run out of money, they don't want any 288 00:22:02.269 --> 00:22:07.150 more kids, they just stop paying for the storage. And many articles I 289 00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:10.950 read said this is kind of the elephant in the room that the IVF clinics 290 00:22:10.990 --> 00:22:14.390 don't want to talk about. What do they do with the eggs? Right, 291 00:22:14.509 --> 00:22:17.299 see, you know what I read that they do. They either let 292 00:22:17.380 --> 00:22:21.980 them you know, they storm as long as they can and they destroy them, 293 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:25.220 right, or, in this horrified me a bit more. Both are 294 00:22:25.299 --> 00:22:30.250 horrifying. They're used for science, right, the mother can sign them over 295 00:22:30.490 --> 00:22:34.450 for research, as these are living human beings right at the earliest stage of 296 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:38.529 development. Yes, but being used for scientific research. And then they are 297 00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:42.329 destroyed. They're not. It said, as though this gives them the out. 298 00:22:42.930 --> 00:22:48.319 They're not allowed to go on then to becoming living human being with altered 299 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.519 whatever. Right, yeah, which is the grievous thing. This is this 300 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.279 is the main concern, because if we believe life begins at conception, and 301 00:22:57.480 --> 00:23:02.150 in my mind, and I think you would agree most of us who claim 302 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:06.789 to be pro life, there is no other logical point in a human beings 303 00:23:06.869 --> 00:23:11.829 existence except for the beginning of that existence, that we could say their life 304 00:23:11.950 --> 00:23:18.299 began. Right, life begins at implantation, you know, when the when 305 00:23:18.380 --> 00:23:22.700 they fertilized egg, when the zygote is implanted into the mother's uterus. Okay, 306 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.980 well, that doesn't really make any sense. They're right, it must 307 00:23:26.980 --> 00:23:30.609 be life begins at conception. And again we're talking about an egg and a 308 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:37.130 sperm coming together in conception and being stored away in, you know, freezer. 309 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.490 I don't know how they store these these things, some kind of freezer, 310 00:23:40.529 --> 00:23:42.559 yeah, whatever, and then ultimately thrown into the garbage can. Yeah, 311 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:47.759 if we believe life begins a conception, we got to be against that. 312 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:49.960 We cannot stand for that. And if you think about it too, 313 00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:56.589 we're really playing, in a sense, playing God. Yeah, and when 314 00:23:56.630 --> 00:24:00.430 human being step into that realm and the realm of playing God, the realm 315 00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:06.869 of creating human beings and doing tests and things like that on human beings, 316 00:24:07.390 --> 00:24:10.819 that is a dark downward spiral. A matter of fact, I would say 317 00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.140 maybe it's not a downward spiral, it's the bottom of the spiral. You 318 00:24:14.220 --> 00:24:19.579 know, when our science is using as its scientific object of scientific exploration, 319 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:25.609 human lives, that's a problem. Yeah, and we as a church, 320 00:24:25.849 --> 00:24:29.730 if we believe what the Bible says, every human being is precious. Life 321 00:24:29.730 --> 00:24:33.329 begins at conception, then we've got to oppose this thing. Yeah, yeah, 322 00:24:33.970 --> 00:24:40.079 in terms of life beginning at conception versus implantation, it was through IVF 323 00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:44.720 research actually that I think that question was, I believe, clearly answered by 324 00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:47.319 science. God answer said, of course, yeah, it's at the moment 325 00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:53.549 of conception. But what they discovered through experimentation with these eggs and sperm as 326 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:57.509 they're being fertilized, was that there was a spark of we call it a 327 00:24:57.549 --> 00:25:03.789 spark of light. More technically it's a spark of zinc. That it. 328 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.579 It's in a phosphorescent medium. You do see a spark of light. Yeah, 329 00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:11.779 anyway, that spark of light. They discovered that the bigger that spark 330 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.779 was, the more viable the egg was. So they were able to then 331 00:25:15.819 --> 00:25:21.849 select which egg was most which fertilized egg was most likely to survive. Yeah, 332 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:25.210 and that. But, but what I'm saying is there is at that 333 00:25:25.609 --> 00:25:29.650 moment that's spark of light, that spark of zinc, which shows that there 334 00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:33.970 has been fertilization. It occurs, you see it at the moment of conception 335 00:25:34.009 --> 00:25:38.279 right to me just be amazing. It is amazing. Yeah, just to 336 00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:44.720 found out that cool fact and the research based on human beings being created is 337 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.839 still it's not a good thing. Yeah, and let me get let me 338 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:49.750 mention a couple. These were some I just came up with on my own 339 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:55.950 as I was thinking further along this subject. The embryos could end up being 340 00:25:55.990 --> 00:26:02.829 adopted by same sex couples. Well, do we, as firm believers and 341 00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.819 the biblical arrangement for a healthy marriage in which to raise children would would that 342 00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:15.220 be okay? But that does happen. That will happen with with the discarded 343 00:26:15.259 --> 00:26:18.890 eggs, the eggs that that the mom who they were harvested from no longer 344 00:26:19.009 --> 00:26:22.369 or wants. Yeah, so that's one thing. Another thing that really bothers 345 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:26.730 me. If you think about it, human being should be treated with dignity 346 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:33.640 and respect through all their natural life, from conception to natural death. Is 347 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:38.799 it ethical for a living human being to be frozen and suspended their life, 348 00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:47.750 suspended in a frozen state indefinitely to the end where they might be discarded if 349 00:26:47.829 --> 00:26:52.109 it's they're not wanted right at the end? Yeah, I mean, and 350 00:26:52.269 --> 00:26:55.789 who's to say, right, how long they can be frozen and still be 351 00:26:56.349 --> 00:27:00.670 like viable? Yeah, still be alive or able to live. I'm not 352 00:27:00.789 --> 00:27:03.859 sure of all of that process. Yeah, but that doesn't give me a 353 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:07.660 lot of like a lot of good feelings to realize that they're human beings, 354 00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:11.299 human lives that are stored away in some freezer somewhere, right. Yeah, 355 00:27:11.500 --> 00:27:15.890 it kind of gives me pause just that part of it. And then one 356 00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:19.970 that we mentioned earlier on in the case of Biblical couples and infertility, it 357 00:27:21.130 --> 00:27:27.529 was never some like scientific intervention. Yeah, it was God. Yeah, 358 00:27:27.650 --> 00:27:33.799 you're changing biblically byplically, it was God who changed the infertility and if he 359 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:38.680 didn't, we assume either he had a purpose, yea or or there was 360 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.710 something that God could bring yeah. Yeah, I think another thing. You 361 00:27:45.789 --> 00:27:51.069 don't have this as an objection, but I think you would think you'd probably 362 00:27:51.069 --> 00:27:56.990 agree with me, is objectifying children, making them sort of objects. Yeah, 363 00:27:57.660 --> 00:28:03.259 and to the point where now we know that there's some push, and 364 00:28:03.299 --> 00:28:08.500 I'm I'm sure somebody in some European countries doing this where, you know, 365 00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:12.490 they're trying to figure out, okay, what makes a child be more beautiful? 366 00:28:12.609 --> 00:28:17.609 How can how can that conception process be sort of tailor to make that 367 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:23.970 child look more beautiful, be taller or have better genetics and live longer or 368 00:28:25.089 --> 00:28:27.799 whatever exactly. You know it's happening. Yeah, and so it's about actifying 369 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:36.160 human beings, right, ejectifying children to the biblical understanding of children is that 370 00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.480 children are a blessing to the family. Children are to be brought into a 371 00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:45.549 family with the mother and the father, raised as a blessing, not as 372 00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:49.670 a not as some object, not as some like toy. And you know, 373 00:28:51.230 --> 00:28:53.829 it's kind of like the spirit of this thing is, well, let's 374 00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:59.980 create five embryos. Two of them, yeah, we will implant and will 375 00:29:00.019 --> 00:29:02.420 have, let's say, if the others later, for yeah, maybe, 376 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:04.900 if we want another one, will have another one later. Now, I 377 00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:07.619 know I'm kind of being a little glib with it and I don't want to 378 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.849 be lighthearted, especially for people that might be listening that have been involved in 379 00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:17.289 this. But, like, we're talking about human lives, we're talking about 380 00:29:17.289 --> 00:29:22.490 human beings, we're talking about, as a society, US objectifying children and 381 00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:27.640 even conception and all these things sort of to benefit us and what we want 382 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.480 in our timing and all that stuff. Yeah, and we can go on 383 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.359 and on and talk about that and I can offend you guys all day long, 384 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.480 but at the end of the day, what what does the Bible say? 385 00:29:37.829 --> 00:29:41.750 What is true? What is what is consistent with truth? Life begins 386 00:29:41.789 --> 00:29:45.910 at conception. Every human being is precious to the Lord and we as human 387 00:29:45.950 --> 00:29:49.750 beings do not have the right to play God. Now, does that mean 388 00:29:49.869 --> 00:29:55.940 if they're IVF clinics that don't destroy embryos, that have a commitment to do 389 00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:59.980 that, or all together wrong? I mean, I think there can be 390 00:30:00.019 --> 00:30:03.259 some conversations about that. I think as long as we're not destroying human lives, 391 00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:08.329 I feel more comfortable with it. But still I do have some concerns 392 00:30:08.490 --> 00:30:12.690 of seeing children as kind of like items that you can buy and items that 393 00:30:12.769 --> 00:30:15.730 you can create in a lab, that you place on a shelf. Until 394 00:30:15.809 --> 00:30:19.049 Betty, for you say, there's just something that doesn't sit well with me. 395 00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:23.000 Yeah, yeah, for that. So you know, I do want 396 00:30:23.039 --> 00:30:26.119 to say it. I know that both of us feel this way. We 397 00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.160 mourn for those women. We know the joy and the love of children and 398 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:36.509 we definitely mourn and understand why women might feel desperate enough to do this. 399 00:30:36.789 --> 00:30:41.470 But but I do hope this podcast helps people to really explore for themselves and 400 00:30:41.589 --> 00:30:45.190 to really think about it, because we do want to remain consistent. You 401 00:30:45.230 --> 00:30:48.950 will be asked about it, I'm sure, by Oh yeah, pro abortion 402 00:30:48.069 --> 00:30:52.539 crowds or whatever, and it's good to have a sense of how you should 403 00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:57.220 answer. Yeah, absolutely. So my conclusion is this that we need to 404 00:30:57.259 --> 00:31:00.779 be biblically consistent. We need to be consistent. Life begins at conception. 405 00:31:02.380 --> 00:31:06.369 That means whether that conception happens in a test tube or whether it happens in 406 00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:11.369 a woman's uterus or whatever. Life begins at conception and we need to protect 407 00:31:11.410 --> 00:31:17.049 all lives. I do believe that we're going to have some further conversations about 408 00:31:17.089 --> 00:31:18.359 this, like if, yeah, this is the case, the what? 409 00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.079 How do we act? But I do think that one thing you can take 410 00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:26.279 away from this is like a tough started out. If you've been involved in 411 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.480 this, just bring it before the Lord Repent. I think we do need 412 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.869 to speak out when the when the subject comes up, and we need to 413 00:31:33.390 --> 00:31:34.829 we need to be informed about this thing so that, like you were on 414 00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:38.589 the plane, you weren't really like super informed about this, right. You 415 00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:42.109 didn't have enough information to really push back and say actually, there's there's some 416 00:31:44.109 --> 00:31:48.339 immortal things going on in these IVF clinics. Yeah, now you do. 417 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:51.980 Now you're able to push back graciously. We don't need to be bulldogs, 418 00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:53.700 like a bull in a China shop, and you need to be jerks about 419 00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:57.140 it, but we do need to stand for truth and so, more than 420 00:31:57.180 --> 00:32:02.410 anything, stand for Truth and and I believe God will honor it. So 421 00:32:04.490 --> 00:32:07.609 we'll wrap this podcast episode up. Encourage you to grab a hold of this 422 00:32:07.849 --> 00:32:12.250 article. It'll be on our sidewalks for Life Web site sidewalks, the number 423 00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:17.759 for lifecom and it's in equipping articles. So it'll be there around the time 424 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:22.039 when this podcast comes out, I believe. So yeah, get Ahold of 425 00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:25.200 this article and let us know what you think. Maybe you have a unique 426 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:30.029 perspective in this. Maybe you can add something to this conversation that we didn't 427 00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:32.349 think of. Maybe we're completely wrong about this and you'd like to correct us. 428 00:32:32.950 --> 00:32:36.430 Heck, we'd love to have you on the podcast. I'd love to 429 00:32:36.549 --> 00:32:40.390 interview someone who's knowledgeable about this stuff and to give us more knowledge. But 430 00:32:40.670 --> 00:32:44.700 yeah, we would love to hear from you. Guys. You can reach 431 00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:46.220 out to meet Daniel a love life dot org and reach out to Vicky. 432 00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:50.259 Vicky at Love Life Dot Org. We'd love to hear from you, but 433 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:58.460 until next time, God bless God, bless you all. Give our love 434 00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:09.930 for love. Give me our love for gratitude. I know it will cost 435 00:33:10.049 --> 00:33:19.079 me my life. Nothing's too precious in some you