In As Much As It Depends On Us

0:00 So as much as it depends on you. As I was thinking about that great verse that you brought up, I know that I need to behave the way that Scripture tells me to behave. And I have to trust that God is going to iron out whatever needs to be ironed out, and he knows that they're there. I have to keep remembering that he knows that that other group is there. I am yours, I'm yours, I'm yours. And me Lord, I'm yours, I'm yours, I'm Welcome to the Gospel Centered Pro Life Podcast, a podcast designed to equip, encourage, and challenge you in pro life ministry and always with a focus on the gospel. Stay tuned.

0:50 I felt your pashed, touch your heart use welcome back to the Gospel Centered Pro Life Podcast. Appreciate you guys joining us, And just to give you guys the heads up, we are recording remotely, so if the sound is a little different than it normally is, that's the reason why. But we are committed to bringing you these episodes every week. So when we're not able to be together in person and record an episode, vikinna record remotely and uh so, yeah, this this will go well and UM, I just wanted to mention too, as we often do at the beginning of the podcast, we would love for you guys to leave us a review of this podcast episode and a review of this podcast just in general. We'd also love for you to share this podcast with other people that you think it would be a blessing too. And then we would encourage you to reach out to us if you have questions or suggestions for future episodes, maybe comments about this particular episode, UM, and we'll give our email addresses at the end. Also, I want to mention UM something that we've mentioned often but maybe haven't mentioned in a while, which is two websites that we have that would be a blessing to you. We created those to bless those who want to get involved in sidewalk ministry or who are doing sidewalk ministry. The first website is the Gospel Centered pro life dot com websites. If you just go to Gospel Center pro life dot com, that's our podcast website. So all the information for these podcasts, all the past episodes, all of that stuff is there, and

2:20 you can actually search for keywords if you're looking for a particular episode that might have covered a particular subject. So yeah, Gospel Centered Pro Life dot Com is our podcast website, and then we have a website that's a training and equipping website for people that want to get involved in sidewalk ministry and that sidewalks the number four life dot com So Sidewalks for Life dot com. You can go check that out. There's articles there, the articles that we post that have to do with this UM. The article that we're gonna post that has to do with this particular episode is gonna be on um Sidewalks for Life dot com. And there's a bunch of other articles and a bunch of other stuff there. So with that, Vicky, let's jump into our episode. What is our subject for today? Well, this, as many of our podcast developed, was developed from an actual situation that happened on the sidewalk. It's very very common. We've actually discussed it before, but we felt it it probably needed to be talked about again. And that is what to do when there are other groups that are on our side, pro life groups, Christians who come with a very different way of approaching the women, and in this particular situation away which we really were hesitant to be associated with UM, it was it was much harsher, much harsher than how we would train our love

3:51 life counselors in general to interact with with the women. And it always creates a great deal of tension. And honestly, I will tell tell you that when I come up against that, it is more difficult for me to deal with than when the opposition is terrible. Yeah, yeah, which is it's almost like you get you get hit on every side. And so just to give you guys a picture of what we're talking about, there was a situation just a few days ago where, uh, I don't know, three or four people showed up on the sidewalk here in Charlotte, and our team was already out there. Our team is out there typically from nine to twelve, reaching out sometimes a little before and after. But um, this group shows up as our team is out there doing their thing, and they start yelling at the women, start yelling things that are just you know, really over the top, unnecessarily um confrontational, under unnecessarily offensive things. We're certainly not against saying offensive things like saying abortionist murder is pretty offensive to people. Were certainly not against that, But there are some things that are over the top.

4:56 And one of the things that happens, you know, we already have opposition out there, many of the ABO centers that you guys are ministering, Yet you have some kind of opposition, maybe people that drive by and curse you, or maybe have pro abortion people out there with their rainbow umbrellas, invests and all that stuff. And you know, we're already getting hit from that angle right there, already hurling false accusations against us and cursing us and all of that. To get hit from the other angle from the people that you think should be on your side, um, can make things pretty difficult. And so we're gonna talk through that and talk through kind of like how you can navigate through that, how you can deal with that, how to process that, and uh and still keep keep doing what God has called you to do. It's it's again, it's not easy. One of the first things I'll say, as we talked about this before we started recording, is in a lot of these situations, now, some of these situations, it can be that they come out, these other pro life people or whatever they call themselves, street preachers can come out. And I'm not against street preachers, like street preaching is awesome. People get saved, it's amazing. But there are some that maybe you would call One guy said, they're not street preachers, they're streets screechers, right, They're just out there just to make a noise. And you know, there was a situation actually, um several months ago where some of those folks came out to one of our cities and we're actually targeting the side of ball counselors out there, like targeting targeting them, calling them names and then calling the women that are going in names and just dishonoring the Lord. But in most of these situations, you gotta understand

6:30 these people are coming out and though they may not be doing things like we do them, and that they may be doing things that are over the top, they're not really coming out to oppose you. Yes, it's throwing a monkey wrench in what you're doing, but they're not coming out necessarily in their heart to cause you problems. They're coming out to to do what they feel like God has called them to. Now whether or not God has called them to that can be up for debate, and I think the debates pretty much settled. When they're doing unbiblical things, God has not called them to that, but we do have to understand that it's not. One of the things I told you about is we can't take it personal. And I think that's probably the main thing as we talk about opposition from whatever side it comes, is we can't take it personal. So I wanted to say that first and foremost. Yeah, I really like that, that we really have to not take it personally. And another similar thought is we need to recognize that our way is not always the only way. Now, I felt very clearly I heard this group UM, and I did feel it was over the top, and I did feel it was not what God would have them do. But I as I was thinking through this issue and how the best deal with it, one of the things that that I know is true of me is I've been out there for ten years and when I started on the sidewalk mine, I think the way I spoke, the things that I said, I would probably characterize as gentle learn than I am now. I do try to speak

8:03 always UM with a gentle tone and compassion and UM try to empathize with or sympathize at best with UM, at least with where these women are coming from in the situations they face, But I think I'm more readily go to harder truths now than I did ten years ago. And I know that there are people that will tell me that I am not gentle enough in in what I'm saying. Certainly the opposition says that frequently so. Um So it is not necessarily true that because someone is is coming with a message that is a little more hard hitting, that that is not going to be used by God.

8:58 But I do you think that there is a line that we can draw between uh convicting message, maybe what someone might call a prophetic message, as opposed to self righteous anger, and when and when we cross that line, I think then we can begin to discuss whether what is happening is still biblical. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think obviously as we teach in our trainings, and we actually actually touch on this subject in our trainings. I think we touch on it in the one oh one training how to deal with other pro life groups. Maybe it's some one O two at this point, but I don't exactly recall, but we do touch on it, and of course we did. We did a podcast about this not terribly long ago.

9:54 Um Our our angle always has to be what does the Bible say all right, at the end of the day, that's got to be our foundation. And I say that because if you have people that come out they're doing things different than what you were trained under love life or what you feel like is effective, that's not necessarily the measure of what is what is right and what is good right just because we teach it we i'm, I'm. The Lord has taught me enough to know that I don't know everything right, and that just because I have a particular bend towards a particular way of doing things doesn't necessarily mean that's the only thing that God will use. So the standard of what is right and what is good and what's acceptable as far as outreach at an abortion center is not love life, and it's not our feelings, and it's not even what's pragmatic what works right. We certainly want to do things that work, there's no doubt about that. But it really, first and foremost has to be the scriptures right. And you can certainly look at scriptures and see where people were pretty harsh John the Baptist, it was a pretty harsh guy, um to people to repent and calling them a brood of snakes and Jesus the same way many of the prophets in the Old Testament and uh folks in the New Paul was a pretty pretty brash guy, and some people's estimation confronted evil. So there's nothing necessarily wrong with being confrontational. But when you get into the realm of it's like some of the things that were observed, like name calling and stuff like that, that's when you step outside of

11:26 what's biblically allowed and you just get in the flesh. And I think that's at least for this situation that we're kind of referencing that happened a couple of days ago, I think these people were in the flesh. They're operating out of the flesh. They're operating, like you said, out of self righteousness. And you can see that self righteousness manifest itself when people are just calling names. You know, you're you know, a horror or a murderer, just flinging that word around like it's you know, the whatever, the word that you need to use all the time, and it's it flows out of self righteous as you can tell by the way that people carry themselves. Really humility in this particular scenario, um would look like talking to the people who are already out there. Right, If I showed up and then I've done this, show up to an abortion center that I've never been to before because I feel like God has called me there. I visited cities all over the nation that have abortion centers, and I show up out there and there are people out there already doing the ministry. I'm not gonna just show up and do my thing. Just start doing what I do. Even as as much as I know the Lord has taught me and as effective as I know what we do, and a biblical as biblical as I know what we do, is if there are people out there doing the stuff, I'm not gonna come in and start doing ministry over top of them. I'm gonna go and talk to them. I'm gonna first thank them for being out there. That shows humility, Right. And so if somebody just shows up out of the abortion center you've been ministering to for a couple of years and just you know, starts throwing around the biblical wrecking all with no regard for what you're doing,

13:01 you can you can pretty much deduce that these people are in the flesh, because that doesn't honor God. Humility honors Lord, that's pride, it's arrogant. It'd be like showing up. I mean, imagine you're a missionary. This is kind of the picture that I actually helped our team with a little bit and just help them to understand the dynamic here. But also we need to come with humility ourselves. But the picture is you're you're a missionary. And I've talked to let me just backtrack just a bit. I've talked to people that do exactly what we're talking about. They show up to the abortion center. They just do their thing, disregarding the people that have been serving out there for years because they feel like they need to do this or do that. I've talked to these people, and this is the analogy that I've given. Imagine that you're a missionary in a foreign country and you've been plowing the ground there for five years. You've been reaching the people, you've been building relationships with the people, and you've seen some fruit. All of a sudden, this short term mission trip group comes out to where you're at doing mission, where you've been doing it for five years. They show up right in the middle of the town and they just put a wrecking ball in all the all the things that you've built, all the things that you've worked for in the relationships that you've worked to build, they just come up and they start just street preaching all over the place, just really disregarding the work that you've done, start doing what they feel like God has called them to.

14:16 Like, how would that make you feel? This is the analogy I'm trying to give to the to the people that show up like that. I do think helping people to understand that dynamic with analogies it's helpful. But sometimes with these people it's not easy to uh have a conversation with them. And I'm talking about some of the screet the street screecher type of people, people who really an arrogance and pride, feel like their way or the highway, you know, like there's no other way to preach, there's no other way to engage people at an abortion center but their own way. So we don't want to take that attitude for sure, and we want to combat that attitude, but it's hard to get through to people that have have pride and hardness of heart like that. Yeah, and so it's kind of some practical suggestion.

15:00 Gens, are you don't want to create division on the sidewalk in front of the opposition. So it's very difficult to have this discussion right as it's happening. And sometimes the best you can do. We're going to go into some ideas for what are the best things you can do when you're in the midst of that situation. But following that UM situation, taking the group the person whoever the leader is, aside going for coffee whatever, having a private phone call. It needs to be a private discussion. And I actually did do this early on. This is not the first time the group has been there, and the some of the principles I used are things that we train our people to do, and I think that they're valuable. First of all, find out where they thank them, like you said, Daniel, thank them for showing up and for their zeal and fighting for the life of the preborn.

15:54 Secondly, find out where they're coming from. And I did find out they they are street churs. They said that, and and I did talk with them about in my experience where I see the street preaching approach UM being in general less likely to get people to come and talk with us, and that our our goal was that people would come and talk with us because then we could um share the gospel, we could offer resources and take them on on our mobile ultrasound unit have them more likely to choose life. And their goal was not necessarily that the baby would be saved. Their life was really to expose the wickedness. Their goal was to expose the wickedness and sin of of what was happening there. So UM, it helps to kind of understand what the goals are, and when the goals are different, there's probably gonna be a little bit of clashing. We tried to work out a compromise, and in fact I would have preferred I suggested they go elsewhere, like to a college campus or somewhere where you can reach women before they are in this life or death situation, because now there is the added element. Yes, their souls are in danger, but there's a baby's life on the line, and we know that if those moms will come and talk with us, that baby might be saved. So um, but they weren't going to go for that, but they did compromise they might they would come later in the day when we were not there, and that didn't happen in this case. They

17:26 came while we were there. But um, but I think so. The immediate first practical suggestion is have a private discussion afterwards, not there in front of the opposition, and try to understand where they're coming from, and if you can compromise, do so. But I would say, first and foremost, just to have our minds and our hearts, right. Yeah. The first thing is, like we talked about in our training, don't take it personal, right, yeah, yeah, we talked about that, and when dealing with angry people and dealing with aboarts, um, don't take it personal. Don't internalize like they're not there because of you. They're there because they feel like God has called them to be there. They're there because babies are being murdered in there. Um. And then you know, the second thing is just because they're not doing it like we do, and just because they may be doing it unbiblically does not necessarily mean they aren't believers in Jesus.

18:22 They could just be and probably are just carnal, probably against self righteous, and whether their believers or not, we have to believe the best. And if they say that their believers in Jesus, um, we have to approach them like that right, whether they are or not. And so I think the Matthew eighteen model that we always talk about, which is what you're saying, is to take them, to take them aside and talk with them rather than One of the worst things that could happen is they're out there, they come show up with their signs and their bullhorns and all that, and they start yelling at the women over top of you. That's a terrible thing. But what could be even worse than that is that you go back and forth with them, yelling at them, and you start arguing with them about methodology and all that other stuff, and it's just not helpful. Right, You're you're adding more fuel to the fire. Essentially, you're trying to diffuse the thing. But in reality, some some of these folks just you can't reason with them, not in that context. And so it's good if you can find out who the leader is, talk with them across the street or like you said, over coffee or over the phone, like can we can we talk about this? But immediately and I think you're gonna go into this, but I'm not sure immediately, the best thing to do is kind of make some distance between you and them. If you're able to do that. Now, I'm not saying you yield ground. We certainly know that babies are dying in there. We want to offer literature, we want to be effective.

19:45 But if we can get away from where these folks are so that we're not associated with them, because we don't want people as much as we can to associate us with that craziness, you know, you know, um, then that could be helpful as well. Maybe position your team a little further up the street, or your whatever at a different driveway or something. And at the end of the day, um, you know, you can't control what happens on the sidewalk, so you have to leave it in the Lord's hands, right, you have to try to reason with them. If you can't reason with them, I would say, reposition your team and then maybe at another point there's an opportunity to reason with them, maybe on the phone or meet with them. I mean, I've even gone as far is reaching out and find out who their churches and reaching out to their pastors. I've done that before as well, and getting their pastors input on it, in their pastor to speak into it. And I've actually seen some good fruit from that.

20:37 Yeah, um, so I would. I would echo that point because I think it's very important if if they are behaving in a way that you truly cannot be in good conscience before the lord associated with that message. Because the women only see one group. They don't see two different groups with two different methods. They see a pro life group that is opposing them, and they lump us all together. So I I absolutely agree, and that's what we told our team to do. Move away. Move away so that you are clearly a distinct different group, and the women will hear the difference in your tone, and that physical separation will help them to know that you're the ones offering UM, hope and help and UM and this other group seems to be very concerned about UM. There we could behavior UM and calling that out so the women maybe, well, we still have a chance they might approach us. But I want to make the point also with Love Life in our ministry, we we have team shirts. That's part of the reason for the team shirts, and it's why it is so critical because this is going to happen. It's going to happen on every sidewalk if you all are identifiable as a group and another group comes in that isn't wearing the shirts. It just may makes it easier for the women you're trying to reach, to make the distinction between the two groups that you really are separate, separate, you have

22:10 UM at least a different way of reaching the women to say, real quick to talk about kind of the the division dynamic. When someone comes out there on the sidewalk and you've been doing ministry out there for a long time and they're being divisive, that's on them, right, UM, But we want to be careful not to ourselves be divisive, right even though we don't agree with their methodology, even though it's way over the top. We want to try not to be divisive as much as it depends on us. And that's what we've titled this UM this actual episode Romans chapter twelve, verse eighteen. Yeah, if it is possible, Romans twelve eighteen says, if it is possible, as much as it depends on you, live peaceably with all men.

22:55 And so that's what we're encouraging you guys to do. And so one of the ways that you can actually be divisive not knowing and not realizing it just because you know it's it's a practical way to deal with it is, as the women are walking in, you can call out and say, we're not with them, We're not with the people out here yelling not knowing that actually that that's divisive actually, and so instead of doing that, you could say something. And this is where the shirts come in. Hey, come out and talk with someone in the coral shirt. You know that's not as divisive as Hey, we're not with them. Don't talk to them, talk to us. And so you know, it's it's kind of a practical. People wonder why why don't y'all have the same shirts. What's so important about wearing the shirts? We even talked about it in the training, wearing the coral Hope is Here shirts. It's it's to distinguish ourselves from other groups.

23:44 So we don't have to say who we're not with. We can have we can very easily say who we are with the people in the coral shirts. Peace, come over and talk to the folks in the coral shirts. So I wanted to mention that, Yeah, um, and so as much as it depends on you, as I was thinking about that great verse that you brought up, but um, I know that I need to behave the way that Scripture tells me to behave, And I have to trust that God is going to iron out whatever needs to be ironed out, and he knows that they're there. I have to keep remembering that He knows that that other group is there. He could have had them have a um, a major detour, or a flat tire or whatever where they would not show up. And I think sometimes we can learn and develop in ourselves, uh through some of these sorts of obstacles that we face. Are we going to respond in the flesh? Are we going to respond with anger? Are we going to respond by creating division? Or are we going to do the best that we can before God to spond in the way that God would have us respond? And and of course that that's what we desire to do. Some of some of the teams, when they face this, will have as our team did, the use of amplified sound. We do have a microphone, and because of

25:18 the way that the laws are set up, we had the use of that microphone in this other group did not. And one of the questions that my counselor asked me was is it okay for me to go ahead and speak over them? They were not stopping, they were not ceasing for a second from speaking with all this anger. But we knew we could be heard over them with the microphone, and she said, can I should I, and I I recommended that she should, and that may or may not have been correct. I don't know. There was a saved baby that day who came after the other group left. Yeah, praise God for that. But I I think if you are able not in a shouting match, if they if it had just been the voices and us trying to scream louder than them, no, I probably would have said, no, just move up the street, try to stop cars before they even get there. But since we did have that tool and we didn't have to yell, we could speak in a quiet voice but over the microphone, and we could still be heard over the angry other group. I did recommend that that she do that. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of strange. And I don't know if you have this in the article, but one of the one of the fallouts, one of the positive effects of this is that our pro abortion opposition and seeing the differences, and I've actually told them this all along, I've said, you might not like us being out here. But I can promise you someone's going to be out here as long as there's killing babies, you should be glad that it's

26:49 us and not some other group. Yeah, And I think they got a little taste of that the other they did. And I think they even saw that and communicated that to our team that was out there. It's like, you guys are a lot different than them, right. They were even making they were even setting themselves up and everything so that our team could call out more effectively, and they would they would tell her, you go ahead, you talk now, and so uh so it it did work in a funny way. In these pro abortion opposition are people that we pray for and we desire them to come to the Lord. And what they did see that day, I think was the difference between the wrath maybe not of God, but but they saw wrath and anger. It was the indignation of man. It was the Bible says the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.

27:41 And what they saw was the anger of man out there on display from those street screechers. And then they saw the actual I mean, we should be angry at the sin of abortion, and uh but it's an anger. If it isn't anger at all, that's baptized in the love of God, right, Yeah, And I think that that what they saw. I think that that's what they saw, is they saw the love of Christ in action, in the tone, in the offers, in the language in Um, not the name calling. Nothing we did. Nothing, our team did changed like they did what they always They're trained to do what the Bible says we should be doing. UM. I want to mention a scripture. And I don't know how many times I've mentioned this scripture in this podcast. UM, but you can never mention the scripture too much. But I think it's an applicable scripture. And again, I have had this this experience before. I've had plenty of times where people show up and they just do things way over the top. It's in the flesh. It doesn't produce the righteousness of God.

28:45 And when I've been able to talk with them, I think this scripture has really helped because with these folks, these are the folks that you know, a lot of times carry around the biggest King James Bible you can get on the face of the planet, right, and they waved the thing around like it's you know, it's it's their salvation whenever. Really, Jesus is our salvation, right, And that the bigger the Bible you have doesn't doesn't mean the more righteous you are. But some of these folks think that that's the case. And so I've reasoned with them from the scriptures, because to me, again, that's the foundation of what we do. It's the Bible. It's not my feelings. It's not what's effective, it's not what society says or anything. It's what does the scripture say. And so when I've been able to have a conversation with folks like this, I opened up this scripture and Second Timothy chapter two. This is Paul speaking with his understudy Timothy and Second Timothy chapter two, verse two, and it says, and the servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but be gentle to all able to teach, patient in humility, correcting those who are in opposition. If perhaps God will grant them repentance so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. And so I'm talking to these people that are again are doing things over the top there, you know, screeching rather than preaching and just out there in the flesh and helping them to understand the Bible says what you're doing is actually not the way the servant the Lord conducts himself. All you're doing is arguing. All you're out here doing is gelling, hurling insults. You're doing exactly what this scripture says a

30:18 servant the Lord should not be doing. And so you need to correct that. And this is why we don't like you being out here is because you're not you're not honoring Jesus in the way that you're conducting yourself. Now I might come a little harsher than that, or I might come a little softer than that, based on how the relationship is and based on if they're willing to hear me or not. But I have seen that be effective. And actually the Lord helped me with that scripture because it's pretty much a direct like correlation with what we're doing. This is how the servant the Lord should conduct themselves. And um so I think again, looking at the scriptures and letting the scripture be the standard is probably the mode, well not probably definitely the most important thing for us and hopefully to influence people that are out there, pro life people out there causing problems. Yeah. So, I don't know if there are any other things that you wanted to cover, but I think we're pretty much at the end of this episode and ready to wrap it up.

31:14 Anything you want to say in closing, Um, the the only scripture that that I wanted to pull out is from Second Chronicles, which I closed the article with because it's always such a helpful scripture for me. Um. Nor do we know what to do, but our eyes are on you as as the writer is speaking to God. When when the horde comes upon us, when when there's opposition, we often don't know what to do, but just keep your eyes on Jesus and be sure that that He is your focus and and not your flesh. Yeah, yeah, definitely in those times, those are times to be lifting up your prayer to the Lord God. I'm surrounded. It seems like the pro life people are against me. It seems like the pro abortion people against me. The women going into the abortion clinic are yelling at me. It's like, but the Bible says, if God is for us, who can be against us and listen. If you guys, heart is to obey God and to do things according to His word.

32:09 God is for you, so who can be against you? Right, even if the world is against you, God is for you. So I just want you guys to know, in the midst of opposition, in the midst of issues that come up out there at the abortion center, this is a battle. But God's fighting this battle with you, and we appreciate what you guys are doing. We would love for you to reach out to us if we can offer any encouragement. You can reach out to meet Daniel at love life dot org and reach her Vicky with a y at love life dot org. We'd love to hear from you, and also we'd love for you guys to leave us a review, share this podcast, and until next time. God bless God, bless you. Give me out love for love, give me our love for gratitude. I'm it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious. Since I met you, M