Euthanasia, Assisted Suicide, and Abortion - A Conversation With Apologist Devin Pellew for Ratio Christi

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:06.440 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours. Send Me Lord. 2 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:10.630 I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast and this episode we're going 3 00:00:10.630 --> 00:00:14.269 to do an interview with Devin Palu from Rassio Christie ministries. We're going to 4 00:00:14.310 --> 00:00:17.870 talk about the issue of abortion, we're going to talk about euthanasia, assisted 5 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:21.109 suicide and what it means to be made in the image of God. Stay 6 00:00:21.190 --> 00:00:34.579 tuned. I felt show passish touch your welcome to the Gospel Center pro life 7 00:00:34.619 --> 00:00:39.530 podcast. We have with us today Devin Palu with Rassio Christie ministries. Him 8 00:00:39.570 --> 00:00:43.170 and his wife or at went through university and other college campuses doing ministry there. 9 00:00:43.369 --> 00:00:45.850 Just share what quick what you guys do and a little bit about your 10 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:49.929 ministry. Yeah, so the group where with again is ratio Christie, which 11 00:00:49.929 --> 00:00:53.159 is Latin for the reason for Christ. I'm sure a lot of the people 12 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:57.920 that listen to this podcast may be aware of apologetics, but maybe for those 13 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.880 who are not, apologetics is just giving an answer or giving reasons why you 14 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.510 hold the position that you hold. And so a lot of different campus ministries 15 00:01:07.549 --> 00:01:11.549 focus on a lot of different areas. That are they're all needed and they're 16 00:01:11.590 --> 00:01:18.579 good to have but our area is primarily apologetics. So we do weekly meetings 17 00:01:18.700 --> 00:01:23.180 where each semester we do a different theme. This semester is the Bible. 18 00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:25.540 How do you know it's true? How did we get it? How is 19 00:01:25.540 --> 00:01:30.459 it translated? So we're at winthrop university. We also do some classes at 20 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:34.969 York Tech Community College. Okay, tonight we kick off our high school, 21 00:01:34.329 --> 00:01:40.569 which is Rasho Christie, college prep, and that gets called high schoolers ready 22 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:44.609 for college. You'll be prepared. In addition to that, we're also able 23 00:01:44.689 --> 00:01:49.200 to lead a professor's group of some amazing Christian professors on the campus of winthrop 24 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:55.359 who also want to know and study apologetics. Normally, this time of the 25 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:57.640 day I'm actually doing our own podcast. Okay, what you matters and start 26 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:00.040 with it to lose. No, it's a it's good to be here. 27 00:02:01.150 --> 00:02:05.670 And then, yeah, so you can check out our youtube page, Rasho 28 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:07.550 Christie winthrop universe. Okay, yeah, cool, yeah, we'll make sure 29 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:10.830 and put that in the in the notes on the podcast, of guess can. 30 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:15.189 So people can who are listening can connect with you, guys. So 31 00:02:15.389 --> 00:02:19.539 I wanted you to come because you know we've ministered before at the abortion clinic. 32 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:22.659 That's primarily what we do as a ministry, Vicki and on, and 33 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:25.979 cities for life, and then you guys some years back with forty days for 34 00:02:27.099 --> 00:02:29.219 life, and you'd come out and you brought some groups out and we just 35 00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:31.449 had the honor to be able to minister alongside you guys, and Y'all have 36 00:02:31.610 --> 00:02:36.370 been sort of handinhand with what we've been doing a cities for life since I 37 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:38.370 think cities for life began. So it's just a blessing to know you guys 38 00:02:38.689 --> 00:02:42.449 and I know you've got, you know, this philosophical mind, so I 39 00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:46.360 wanted to kind of mine your philosophical mind. How about that? And I 40 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:49.840 wanted to talk about as I sent you, you know, a few questions. 41 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:52.560 Of course, talking about the issue of abortion. That's what this podcast 42 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:53.919 is about, talking about it, the issue of abortion in light of the 43 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:59.150 Gospel. But I think these other issues that I mentioned to you about youth 44 00:02:59.189 --> 00:03:02.270 and Asia and assisted suicide sort of, I mean definitely tie into this this 45 00:03:02.509 --> 00:03:07.069 issue of abortion. Will Get to those issues, but just just to ask 46 00:03:07.110 --> 00:03:09.669 you from your experience, you sent me a video of a young man who 47 00:03:10.229 --> 00:03:15.819 was a student at went through it, who came initially was for abortion. 48 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:19.979 He was pro choice and an abortion was an okay thing. And you'd talked 49 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.699 with him and had some conversations with him and he actually changed his position on 50 00:03:23.780 --> 00:03:28.050 the issue of abortion and now he's prolife. Right, he say he's he's 51 00:03:28.050 --> 00:03:31.210 against abortion. So what are some of those? I guess I was first 52 00:03:31.250 --> 00:03:36.050 ask some of those challenges when you're talking to people from a Biblical and a 53 00:03:36.090 --> 00:03:39.449 philosophical perspective about the issue of a life, about abortion. What are some 54 00:03:39.490 --> 00:03:44.240 of the challenges that you found with students? Yeah, you know, one 55 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:46.960 of the things we do when we are at the campus. You know, 56 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:52.120 where to a secular university. So a lot of the students that come they 57 00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:54.909 may have been brought up in the church and so they've heard a lot of 58 00:03:55.030 --> 00:03:59.270 the scriptures, you know, Jeremiah, you formed me, the womb, 59 00:03:59.310 --> 00:04:03.710 etc. But they don't really know outside of that. What are some good 60 00:04:03.870 --> 00:04:08.509 reasons to think, you know, life begins at conception, or good reasons 61 00:04:08.590 --> 00:04:12.620 to think that abortion is wrong? So I think just giving them some of 62 00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:16.300 these answers, some of the biological answers, philosophical answers, showing them that 63 00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:20.100 life begins at conception, and then kind of going through a lot of the 64 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:26.370 pro choice objections. I think that's it's it's really key and vital because they 65 00:04:26.490 --> 00:04:30.209 need to know they're getting an onslaught of all these particular objections that are coming. 66 00:04:30.250 --> 00:04:33.250 Yeah, and most of the objections, as you know, they just 67 00:04:33.410 --> 00:04:38.089 assume that the unborn is not a human being. Sure. So what we 68 00:04:38.250 --> 00:04:42.480 try and do is keep laser focused on that question of what is the unborn 69 00:04:42.959 --> 00:04:46.319 and then when all these objections come, just kind of walk them through how 70 00:04:46.360 --> 00:04:48.720 to do that. Yeah, so do you find that there's sort of, 71 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:53.350 I don't like, a wall because they were raising the church and then they're 72 00:04:53.350 --> 00:04:57.509 exposed to the university setting, in the university setting, in a lot of 73 00:04:57.629 --> 00:05:01.269 university settings at least, it's almost everything that's contrary to what they learned in 74 00:05:01.350 --> 00:05:04.589 church? Do you find that they sort of, with their confidence in their 75 00:05:04.750 --> 00:05:09.220 in their university professors, sort of put up a wall against any sort of 76 00:05:09.259 --> 00:05:13.500 Biblical truth and then you find that a barrier between even talking about pro life? 77 00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:15.300 Yeah, yeah, I mean sometimes, you know, you have a 78 00:05:15.339 --> 00:05:19.660 couple of different scenarios with students. Some of them, you know, they 79 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:23.970 grow up in the church. They and and this is not to bash the 80 00:05:24.050 --> 00:05:27.610 church. I love the church, or Etra, but they go to VBS, 81 00:05:27.689 --> 00:05:30.889 they go to Sunday morning, they go to Sunday night and they think, 82 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.170 because they've had a little bit of answers in Genesis, that they know 83 00:05:33.290 --> 00:05:38.240 apologetic. Yeah, and then they get to the university and they get creamed. 84 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.000 Yeah, as long as it's assumed that the Bible's the word of God 85 00:05:42.040 --> 00:05:46.560 and it's assumed there's a Christian worldview, they do okay, but the university 86 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.949 just doesn't share those particular assumptions. And so what a lot hat with. 87 00:05:50.110 --> 00:05:55.550 A lot of times what happens is they just end up having a lot of 88 00:05:55.629 --> 00:05:58.629 questions about how do I know the Bible's true? How do I know God 89 00:05:58.790 --> 00:06:01.670 even exists? They go home, they talk to their parents. Parents think, 90 00:06:01.709 --> 00:06:04.300 well, you know, you talked to the pastor, because that's kind 91 00:06:04.339 --> 00:06:08.980 of his job, right, and so you know they're the pastor's getting hit 92 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:13.420 with all these objections from somebody like a Richard Dowkins or Harris or these guys 93 00:06:13.459 --> 00:06:16.939 that are the new atheists and they don't know how to respond because seminary didn't 94 00:06:16.939 --> 00:06:19.529 really teach them that. Yeah, and so it's kind of this well you 95 00:06:19.649 --> 00:06:24.930 just have to have faith, kind of a thing which most students know Rightley, 96 00:06:24.970 --> 00:06:27.689 it's really not a good answer. Yeah, and so they do build 97 00:06:27.689 --> 00:06:32.000 up this wall almost as though, you know, church and Sunday school. 98 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:36.279 That's one thing on Sundays, but things like science, biology, philosophy, 99 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:39.959 that's what we do the rest of the week. Right. So it's almost 100 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.639 these two separate categories. So when you get into the issue of abortion, 101 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:47.509 it's almost like they put this into the category of the science and so well, 102 00:06:47.550 --> 00:06:50.709 maybe my faith, my faith, would say you shouldn't have an abortion, 103 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:56.069 but you know, through science and biology and that, you know they're 104 00:06:56.069 --> 00:06:59.550 going to come to a different conclusion. They don't know how to harmonize those 105 00:06:59.670 --> 00:07:01.459 tools that God's give. Yeah, sure. So what are some of the 106 00:07:01.540 --> 00:07:04.420 ways that you, because I know you'd guess, do more than just trying 107 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:10.300 to convince people to you believe the Bible and then believe that life begins a 108 00:07:10.339 --> 00:07:13.980 conception, you're actually you not just trying to convince people, you're trying to 109 00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:16.410 shure up those who already believe those things, but give them good reasons and 110 00:07:16.569 --> 00:07:21.610 good answers to to give to those who in there, you know, their 111 00:07:21.649 --> 00:07:26.050 peers that would ask. So what are some of the things you encourage students 112 00:07:26.129 --> 00:07:28.970 with? The Hey is, this is why we're pro life. Is Christians, 113 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:30.360 and what are some of the things that you that you help them to 114 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.480 shure up their their faith with? So, Greg Cokel, I'm sure you 115 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:38.839 you know Greg Cocol's ministry standard reason, he wrote a really good book called 116 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:42.800 tactics, and so in this book tactics, he's really teaching how to ask 117 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:46.829 question. Okay. And so, for example, when I'm talking, I 118 00:07:46.870 --> 00:07:50.149 remember talking to his student and you know, a lot of them would say 119 00:07:50.189 --> 00:07:54.790 that they are Christians but would fall on this pro choice side, and so 120 00:07:55.029 --> 00:07:57.750 just question. So I remember asking this young man. He's saying, well, 121 00:07:57.790 --> 00:08:01.500 I'm pro choice and I said, well, choice to do? What? 122 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:03.579 What is it that you believe women should have choice to do? Should 123 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:07.899 have a choice to have an abortion? Nash, well, what is an 124 00:08:07.939 --> 00:08:11.339 abortion? And it's almost like when I ask that, the light went on 125 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:13.689 and he realized, Oh, yeah, it's Id because you just you hear 126 00:08:13.769 --> 00:08:16.209 the terms, you use the terms, but when you really think, well, 127 00:08:16.329 --> 00:08:20.649 what is an abortion? Yeah, then it's almost like the light turned 128 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:24.850 on and he saw that's all I had to do with them. So that's 129 00:08:24.889 --> 00:08:28.519 one example. Another example is just really making them define their terms. So 130 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.720 another student would say, well, abortion is a termination of a pregnancy, 131 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:37.159 but you know, when my wife gave birth to our little girl, Aliana 132 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:43.110 shameless plugged me. Yeah, I'll learned men that pregnancy was terminated, sure, 133 00:08:43.230 --> 00:08:45.710 but her life wasn't terminated. Yeah, so it's more than just a 134 00:08:45.710 --> 00:08:52.590 termination of a pregnancy. So it's really making them hone in on the words 135 00:08:52.629 --> 00:08:56.019 that are used. What exactly is meant? Or sometimes, when more example, 136 00:08:56.059 --> 00:08:58.379 a student might say, well, I personally would never have an abortion, 137 00:09:00.139 --> 00:09:03.100 but I wouldn't try to force my morality on others. So I may 138 00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:05.779 ask, well, why wouldn't you personally have an abortion? Well, because 139 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:09.419 I believe it kills a baby. Yeah, well, if you believe it 140 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:11.649 kills a baby, why would you be okay with others having the choice to 141 00:09:11.690 --> 00:09:15.049 kill a baby? Yeah, and then, you know, just some of 142 00:09:15.129 --> 00:09:16.649 those questions. I think they just haven't thought through. It's a lot of 143 00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:22.370 slogans within the abortion argument and when you really drill down and make them think 144 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:26.360 through it, they can see the issues. Yeah, yeah, Vicky, 145 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.399 we did. We've done some podcast about week, sort of tackled the pro 146 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.480 choice arguments for abortion and we deal with some of the biblical pro choice arguments. 147 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:39.470 I don't know if you've heard, Devin, the numbers shout. I 148 00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:41.429 know you have the numbers. Chapter Five, passage where, you know, 149 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:45.590 priests is to take some dust off the the tabernacle floor. Give it. 150 00:09:45.750 --> 00:09:50.429 This is supposedly a God induced abortion. Now I don't imagine you. Do 151 00:09:50.509 --> 00:09:52.940 you deal with that sort of thing either? Not, not, normally. 152 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:58.139 Normally the people that we're dealing with, it's not. They're not trying to 153 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:01.659 make a biblical case. Yeah, right now there are some liberal groups on 154 00:10:01.860 --> 00:10:05.820 campus that we will, you know, interact with and that, but they 155 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:09.809 wouldn't they wouldn't be able to, they wouldn't know those kind of arguments. 156 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:13.730 So most of the things we're getting are the arguments like, you know, 157 00:10:13.809 --> 00:10:18.769 it's the woman's body, it's a woman's choice, you don't want to ruin 158 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:22.759 her life if she's wanting to go finish school or you know, yeah, 159 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.039 unasure for a mistake or something like that. So or, you know, 160 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.799 they d t each more of the higher level arguments in classes like Judith Jarvis 161 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:39.350 Thompson's violin to argument stuff we just very yeah. So so do you? 162 00:10:39.549 --> 00:10:41.830 Do you ever have a situation where our student is come to who is actually 163 00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:46.389 considering abortion and they've come and say tell me why I shouldn't do this? 164 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.700 So I we've had some out so not students, but like my my wife 165 00:10:50.820 --> 00:10:54.940 is really the one that got me really involved in this. My wife has 166 00:10:54.019 --> 00:10:58.059 that all the time. Right, yeah, the phone, try to talk 167 00:10:58.139 --> 00:11:01.860 someone out of it like that. But as far as students go, we've 168 00:11:01.899 --> 00:11:05.769 had students come to us and say they're friends, their friend is concerned. 169 00:11:05.169 --> 00:11:07.809 What can I tell them? What do I say? Yeah, and can 170 00:11:07.889 --> 00:11:13.049 I ask you that, because I know our listeners are being prolife people that 171 00:11:13.210 --> 00:11:16.730 are look seeking, oftentimes to influence their their friends. Yeah, and and 172 00:11:18.330 --> 00:11:22.080 you know, just some basic points about well, where do you start? 173 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.519 And and and there's two groups. Those who claim that they know God. 174 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.440 Yeah, and claim that God will be a forgiving God it. We hear 175 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.480 that all the time. God will forgive me, I'm going to do this 176 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.549 or I think it's okay because we know that God will forgive. And then 177 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:37.750 those, and I think this is maybe the harder group to start with, 178 00:11:37.870 --> 00:11:43.669 because a baby's life is on the line. It's basically crisis emergency, that 179 00:11:43.750 --> 00:11:46.179 baby's going to die. But they don't believe in God and so you don't 180 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:52.500 have the months that you probably take typically to take someone from an atheist position, 181 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:56.259 yeah, all the way to this human life that you carry is precious. 182 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:01.809 So if you can give some just basic, the actual practical things that 183 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.570 you would say in both of those scenarios, I think that would be really 184 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.090 helpful. Yeah, so I think with the course, with the biblical scenario, 185 00:12:09.250 --> 00:12:13.129 you're just wanting to remind them, hey, if you are a Christian, 186 00:12:13.809 --> 00:12:16.200 what is your authority? Right, and they know you know if you're 187 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.159 a Christian, it's the Bible. We talk a lot about the worldview and 188 00:12:20.200 --> 00:12:22.600 how we see the world and the Bible is like the Lens in which we 189 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:26.000 see the world. And so what does the Bible say about these things? 190 00:12:26.039 --> 00:12:30.629 So the Bible may not explicitly use the word abortion, but it talks about, 191 00:12:31.070 --> 00:12:33.230 you know, murder, talks about, you know onjust killing, and 192 00:12:33.389 --> 00:12:37.549 so you have to look at does abortion fall into that, and then you 193 00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:41.230 can show it that it does. What the other case, where they're not 194 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:48.779 Christians, see, there is general revelation and special revelation. General revelation is 195 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:52.059 what God has revealed to us through nature. You see Romans one talk about 196 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:56.019 this. Well, people know the difference between right and wrong. You may 197 00:12:56.059 --> 00:13:00.450 not be able to drill down on all the exact, you know, minutia 198 00:13:00.610 --> 00:13:05.570 of the particular right and wrong, but in general people know it's wrong to 199 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:11.889 torture babies rather than love them. Right. And so with general revelation, 200 00:13:11.289 --> 00:13:15.759 most people know the difference between right and wrong. If you ask it, 201 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.320 is it okay to kill a baby afterbirth? Ninety nine percent of atheists are 202 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.600 going to say no, it's not. They know that, even though they 203 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:26.950 don't believe that God exists, because God does exist, there's this rounding and 204 00:13:28.110 --> 00:13:31.190 foundation. It's what they would, you know, call like the ontological foundation, 205 00:13:31.350 --> 00:13:35.070 to where there is a moral standard, even if they don't believe God 206 00:13:35.190 --> 00:13:39.269 exists, and so you can appeal to that. But what I what I 207 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:43.740 do is just look at what is the scientific evidence? When does life begin? 208 00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:48.700 So I would just use a very simple, deductive argument, premise one, 209 00:13:50.139 --> 00:13:54.259 whatever be, I'm sort of giving a column there. Different argument, 210 00:13:54.940 --> 00:14:00.889 premise one. It is wrong to intentionally take the life of an innocent human 211 00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:03.610 being. Premise to abortion, take to the life of an innocent human being. 212 00:14:03.889 --> 00:14:07.649 Therefore abortion is wrong. So they're going to have to showcase premise one 213 00:14:07.690 --> 00:14:11.000 or premise two faults, and I've never had anybody be able to give an 214 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.960 answer to that. Yeah, because most are going to grant. Yeah, 215 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:18.639 it is wrong to intentionally take the life of an innocent human being. So 216 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.600 now the next step is, okay, does abortion do this? If life 217 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.830 begins a conception, it does, and that's where I will marshal the Scientific 218 00:14:28.909 --> 00:14:35.830 Evidence from the Embryology Textbook, biology textbooks and demonstrate the authority show life begins 219 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:39.580 a conception. Right, right. We try to steer them. Then it's 220 00:14:39.580 --> 00:14:43.379 at some point, or at what point would you steer them into the truth 221 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.539 of the Gospel? Because ultimately, if you're going to truly change the heart 222 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:50.779 that that says you know that I'm going to Abhord, then we know, 223 00:14:52.179 --> 00:14:54.090 yeah, it has to come through a change in our soul, in our 224 00:14:54.129 --> 00:14:58.889 heart. Twist. Yeah, I think once they see that, once they 225 00:14:58.889 --> 00:15:01.889 can be shown that it is a human being, then you can get into 226 00:15:01.929 --> 00:15:05.889 some of those arguments of well, it has an intrinsic value because people are 227 00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:07.440 made in the image of God. You know, one of the big things 228 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:13.120 today is the LGBT or discrimination. So you can give examples. Is it 229 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:18.159 wrong to beat up a homosexual just because you know they're attracted to the same 230 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:22.029 sex? Right? Theologically, obviously we don't agree with that, but we 231 00:15:22.070 --> 00:15:24.350 wouldn't say somebody should be beat up exactly. Yeah, why? Well, 232 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:28.110 because they're human beings, they have intrinsic value, they're made in the image 233 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.990 of God and therefore they should be valued. Okay, well, now the 234 00:15:31.110 --> 00:15:35.190 atheist is not going to agree with that. That's what gives them all right. 235 00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:37.100 So we're do you? How do you get that's kind of what I'm 236 00:15:37.100 --> 00:15:41.259 asking is, how do I how do I give arguments for God's existence, 237 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:43.500 that it well, for the value, for the value of that child? 238 00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:48.899 What gives that child value? We're does an atheist typically start and how do 239 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.009 you lead them to what we know to be true, that human beings to 240 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:56.090 value because they're made in the image of a Holy God? Yeah, so, 241 00:15:56.210 --> 00:16:00.169 I mean I think most atheists, because I mean if most of my 242 00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:03.289 guests, would probably have more of like an evolutionary view of humanities. So 243 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:08.600 they would. They may say that higher forms have more value. Again, 244 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.080 I'm not saying it's consistent, but would say it they have a higher value 245 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:17.240 than other lower life forms. That way, therefore, you know abortion, 246 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.470 because you actually have secular pro life groups. Yeah, sure, problem is, 247 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:23.990 and I've talked with several them, the problem is they do have a 248 00:16:25.070 --> 00:16:27.629 hard time grounding it. They can point to natural law and they can point 249 00:16:27.669 --> 00:16:32.789 to these things that show we with it is a human being, we should 250 00:16:32.789 --> 00:16:34.500 have value, but they really a lot of times do have a hard time 251 00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:38.700 showing why do we have more value than, for example, puppy or a 252 00:16:38.820 --> 00:16:42.019 bear. So I can't really make that argument. I don't know why they 253 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:48.370 hold that. I've I've had these conversations and with them and a lot of 254 00:16:48.409 --> 00:16:53.129 the secular pro life don't necessarily know exactly how that's grounded. As far as 255 00:16:53.289 --> 00:16:56.809 getting them to kind of our position is, therefore, you know, you'd 256 00:16:56.850 --> 00:17:02.960 have to get more into their arguments for God's existence. So cosmological arguments like 257 00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:06.200 the Oh, you know, origins of the universe, fine tuning of the 258 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.279 universe, the design, showing that it's we're not an accident, it didn't 259 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:14.039 just come about by chance, and showing that there's a purpose in a design 260 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.710 and a plan behind it and that kind of you know, is going to 261 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:21.109 show. If you can show God created the universe and the life didn't come 262 00:17:21.150 --> 00:17:25.269 from nonliving material, then we do have value, we do have dignity and 263 00:17:25.509 --> 00:17:26.829 we're not our own okay, now let me ask you. So I'm in 264 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:32.859 front of an abortion clinic, I'm with an atheist mom and and I agree 265 00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:34.299 with you. I totally agree with you. I think that is where you 266 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:38.539 have to start. Can we do that in five minutes or yeah, and 267 00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:42.180 it can. Can you give me an like the example of what you might 268 00:17:42.259 --> 00:17:45.089 say that can lead them to that, that place? And what was saying? 269 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:49.930 If you want to play the do a little role? Yeah, yeah, 270 00:17:51.009 --> 00:17:52.970 that way. I know exactly how I would resk. Okay, it's 271 00:17:53.009 --> 00:17:56.930 it's not a baby, it it's a clump of cells. Okay, and 272 00:17:57.089 --> 00:18:02.359 and and look, you believe in God, I don't. So you know, 273 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.519 I'm not worried about where I'm going. I'm going to turn into dust, 274 00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.799 you know, the worms are going to eat me. I there is 275 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:11.720 no such thing as heaven or hell. And and right now this baby's going 276 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.950 to destroy my life. And I'm here and I'm alive and I need I've 277 00:18:15.990 --> 00:18:18.109 got plans. Yeah, yeah, they're there. There we go, so 278 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:22.190 I stay scenario. You got it. Yeah, I would say. You 279 00:18:22.309 --> 00:18:25.829 know what she says. You know, I don't believe in God and this 280 00:18:25.950 --> 00:18:29.660 baby's just a clump of cells. Well, if God doesn't exist, then 281 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:32.460 all you are is just a clump of cells. Would it be okay to 282 00:18:32.500 --> 00:18:34.619 kill you, or would it be okay to kill one of your loved ones? 283 00:18:34.660 --> 00:18:37.019 If all we are, if there is no god, if all it 284 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:41.809 is is nature, and if all we are as clumps of cells, well 285 00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:44.730 you wouldn't say it would be okay to kill you. Well, yeah, 286 00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:47.970 but I'm clumps of cells that think and know that I'm alive and you know 287 00:18:48.009 --> 00:18:51.769 I'm conscious and I'm breathing and okay. So why would it? Why? 288 00:18:51.890 --> 00:18:55.049 What? Why does why would that be morally relevant? Why does it matter 289 00:18:55.289 --> 00:19:00.599 something is conscious, at conscious in order to have value? What makes being 290 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:06.240 conscious look? Is it value? That's a good question. For example, 291 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.670 you just don't be ages. Yeah, it just depends how they might go. 292 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:17.589 You know, you could give an example of our rats conscious moll people 293 00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:18.630 going to say, well, yeah, at your well then our rats, 294 00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:22.630 persons, are rats people. Would it be wrong to kill rats if you 295 00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:27.579 have a rat infestation and you gasp the rats. You know, is that 296 00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:32.660 going to ben is that the same as murder? Right, we know intuitively, 297 00:19:32.700 --> 00:19:36.700 even if the person doesn't acknowledge that God exists, we know at our 298 00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:41.130 conscience there's a difference between killing a baby and killing a rat. Now the 299 00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:44.089 distinction, I think that needs to be made with the pro life and pro 300 00:19:44.210 --> 00:19:48.890 choice position. I don't believe at the foundation. Now you do have some 301 00:19:48.210 --> 00:19:52.690 that are going to argue this, but I think the vast majority the confusion 302 00:19:52.769 --> 00:19:56.319 is not is it okay to kill babies, because if you talk to a 303 00:19:56.319 --> 00:20:00.440 lot of pro choice people, the issue is more the confusion is when does 304 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.319 life begin? Yeah, and you know this because the vast majority of pro 305 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.269 choice people are against abortion in the second and third try. Yes, that's 306 00:20:07.309 --> 00:20:10.950 true. Yeah, right. And so it's more of well, when does 307 00:20:11.029 --> 00:20:15.109 life begin? It's not the majority of people say, Hey, it's okay 308 00:20:15.150 --> 00:20:18.069 to kill babies. Yeah, right, because if that was a case, 309 00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:22.059 most of them would not be for our restricting abortions in the third of a 310 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:25.140 second. Yeah, you know, you know, it's funny. I mean 311 00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:29.539 I have conversations all the time with pro choice people in front of the abortion 312 00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:32.500 clinic. So these are probably some of the most I mean, I don't 313 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:36.569 know, but I'm thinking probably some of the most radical pro choice of come 314 00:20:36.650 --> 00:20:38.210 pro abortion people that you can meet, because they're actually taking the step of 315 00:20:38.329 --> 00:20:41.690 being in front of an abortion clink to pose what we're doing it. Even 316 00:20:41.769 --> 00:20:45.130 with those people, when I ask them the question, it's like you far 317 00:20:45.210 --> 00:20:48.410 as when? When does life begin? When does life begin? They can 318 00:20:48.490 --> 00:20:52.079 tell you when life doesn't begin, but they can never really tell you when 319 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.880 life does begin. Right. So they'll say, well, it certainly not 320 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.039 in the first try, master, I mean, there's no doubt about that, 321 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:00.480 and probably not even in the second time. MSTER. Some of them, 322 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.869 some of them are are twenty weeks, some of them are twenty four 323 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:07.230 weeks, twenty two weeks. I've heard different, different numbers. I'm like, 324 00:21:07.750 --> 00:21:11.710 so I argued with one of them that we argued, but you know, 325 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:15.309 it's game as argument that. Hey, so I'm taking the position of 326 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:18.500 I know when life begins. You're taking position where you don't really know if 327 00:21:18.619 --> 00:21:22.900 that building over there, you know someone was about to wreck it with a 328 00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:26.019 wrecking ball and I asked you, is there any living people in there? 329 00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:30.380 Like, have they checked it and you said, I don't know. Right 330 00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:33.529 then, what did we like? Are On the side of well, if 331 00:21:33.569 --> 00:21:38.369 you don't know when life begins, why don't we just protect all potential lives 332 00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:42.130 and you can stand with me and we'll stand against abortion. Yeah, and 333 00:21:42.210 --> 00:21:45.009 which I don't know is the best. Best it is. Yeah, pro 334 00:21:45.170 --> 00:21:48.599 I remember when President Obama was asked, you know this, with Rick Warren, 335 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:52.039 when does life begin? And he swell, it's above my pay grade. 336 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.880 Yeah, well then, why would you be, for you know, 337 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.839 putting all these laws in to move restrictions on abortion if you could potentially be 338 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.190 killing the human being? Exactly? If you know? If you don't know, 339 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:07.349 don't shoot. Yeah, so there's yeah, there's like this win and 340 00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:10.109 out, throw it out sort of. But if the'reality one thing I would 341 00:22:10.109 --> 00:22:14.109 say, you know is in for your listeners. It is not a mystery 342 00:22:14.150 --> 00:22:18.500 when life begins. Yeah, biological fact. Right now, some pro choice, 343 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:22.220 some of the philosophers try and make a distinction between being a human being 344 00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:25.940 in a person. Yeah, and then you have to get into some of 345 00:22:26.019 --> 00:22:29.900 those arguments and show why. You know, though, there's no real and 346 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:33.170 moral, irrelevant difference. Yeah, but that life begins to conception. That's 347 00:22:33.289 --> 00:22:37.289 just we've known that for yeah, all the time. You I've had pro 348 00:22:37.369 --> 00:22:41.049 choice people say using science and they say, you know, science, science 349 00:22:41.089 --> 00:22:45.720 proves it. Life doesn't begin at conception, like really, because or that 350 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.319 personhood doesn't beginning. Science proves it. These babies aren't persons. That's that's 351 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.440 the argument. There's I was like, wait a minute, like person is 352 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.440 not really a scientific term, right, it's a philosophical term you're making. 353 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.710 I'm making a philosophical argument when I say human beings are intrinsically valuable and that 354 00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:03.589 that person in the womb, that baby in the women, is a person. 355 00:23:04.069 --> 00:23:07.430 You're also making a philosophical argument when you're saying it's not a person. 356 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:11.309 Yeah, and and you know you deal with a lot of that philosophical you 357 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.980 know stuff. You know you deal with those thoughts and so you know you 358 00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:19.059 guys already talked through some of that and how to talk to an atheist in 359 00:23:19.140 --> 00:23:22.579 front of a an abortion clinic. But what are some of the, I 360 00:23:22.660 --> 00:23:26.809 guess, most relevant philosophical arguments when you're talking about abortion? I think you've 361 00:23:26.809 --> 00:23:30.569 already shared some of that, but even some of the I guess, higher 362 00:23:30.569 --> 00:23:34.450 arguments about abortion because when you get into talking about life begins at conception, 363 00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:38.970 I think most thinking pro choice people have sort of said yeah, life, 364 00:23:40.089 --> 00:23:42.079 of course it begins at conception. Even you've got some, some very prominent 365 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:48.240 pro choice advocates that say yeah, I'll grant you that, even with the 366 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:51.920 violinist argument. Share these like I'll grant you that, this is a person, 367 00:23:52.039 --> 00:23:55.710 but does this person have the right to take over another person since body? 368 00:23:56.029 --> 00:23:57.789 So what are some of those higher arguments? Are At least some ways 369 00:23:57.869 --> 00:24:00.869 to combat some of those higher pro choice arguments, if you understand what I'm 370 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:03.269 saying? Yeah, I think so. So some of those arguments like you 371 00:24:03.349 --> 00:24:07.309 just mentioned, like the violinist argument, those are those are some of the 372 00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:11.140 harder ones to defeat because in most of the arguments, most of most of 373 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:15.500 the pro choice people, we're not talking in academy, but just most of 374 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:18.539 the people you're going to run into at the grocery store whatever, they're not 375 00:24:18.619 --> 00:24:22.140 aware of those kind of art yea, most it's most emotional or right, 376 00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:26.609 right, and they almost always beg the question as to when life begins, 377 00:24:26.730 --> 00:24:30.170 you know. But some of the higher level arguments, like the Judith Jervis 378 00:24:30.250 --> 00:24:33.170 Thompson's violinist arguments. They're hard because they grant that it's a human being. 379 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:37.569 Yeah, and so really what you need to show because with I think the 380 00:24:37.849 --> 00:24:41.119 the that particular violinist arguments trying to argue from analogy. We're trying to show 381 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:45.359 is really worth the analogies break down. Sure. So, for example, 382 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:49.599 with the violinist argument, it's fine. I'm doing a fifteen week course at 383 00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:53.710 ours on our Sunday School Church on this issue. Okay, last week was 384 00:24:53.829 --> 00:24:57.230 this arguments? All right, yeah, we we just a podcast last week 385 00:24:57.230 --> 00:25:00.349 about this Argu yeah, really, really, it's not a question of when 386 00:25:00.470 --> 00:25:03.789 life begins, but a question of when is that like valuable, because I 387 00:25:03.869 --> 00:25:07.220 think they will grant us most of the time they will say it's alive at 388 00:25:07.299 --> 00:25:11.299 some level, but it's a lesser value. And I think for me that's 389 00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:15.180 what the higher level argument is is when does value when? When is value 390 00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:18.819 conferred upon that child? Yeah, so with with some of them, you 391 00:25:18.859 --> 00:25:21.099 know, we were just talking about the some of them would say, well, 392 00:25:21.180 --> 00:25:25.769 because it's not conscious. So maybe what I would say is what makes 393 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:30.690 somebody a human being? What is it that makes someone valuable or makes someone 394 00:25:30.049 --> 00:25:33.450 a human being. And so you may get this thing like, well, 395 00:25:33.089 --> 00:25:38.279 it's it's conscience or it's has sentience, et Cetera. But again you have 396 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:44.960 things like rats or kangaroo's these things also have consciousness, but we wouldn't say 397 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.119 that their persons. What about people who are in Colemas, for example, 398 00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:52.950 that don't have that? Are they still considered persons? And so I think 399 00:25:53.029 --> 00:26:00.829 it's trying to flush out their inconsistencies. If they're going to say human, 400 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.099 it's a human but it's not a person with value. It's really the onus, 401 00:26:04.259 --> 00:26:07.900 is not me, to disprove them. They have to give reasons as 402 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:12.619 to why it's morally relevant. What's the difference between a human being and a 403 00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:18.220 person and all these little, you know, things that they have, such 404 00:26:18.220 --> 00:26:22.490 as, you know, consciousness, etc. When you just apply them, 405 00:26:22.690 --> 00:26:26.210 it ends in it in absurdity. Somebody that's in a coma, can you 406 00:26:26.329 --> 00:26:30.170 kill them? Well, but then euthanasia, as we know, they are 407 00:26:30.329 --> 00:26:36.079 killing people like commas. Yeah, so, but there's a distinction there. 408 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.240 Most of the people that do the euthanasia they want to die. The baby 409 00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:42.720 doesn't have that choice right either. Not Given them. Yes, so there's 410 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:47.430 a difference between people that just to they have this terminally ill disease, they 411 00:26:47.509 --> 00:26:52.230 don't want to live anymore. And you know somebody that you know. They're 412 00:26:52.230 --> 00:26:53.869 just pulling the plug and somebodys and even have a say. Yeah, and 413 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.869 even with that, you know, one of the distinctions also, you know, 414 00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:03.059 talk about the violinist argument. Yeah, it's not just withholding, it's 415 00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:07.940 actually actively murdering. Yeahs with abortion it's like, you know, you're slitting 416 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:11.700 the throat, you're not just unplugging from the violinist. Now with you euthanasia, 417 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:15.210 it is also not just passing, but it is an act of killing. 418 00:27:15.289 --> 00:27:18.890 And so I mean, we can talk about some yeah, let's jump 419 00:27:18.890 --> 00:27:22.170 into that, because I didn't want to talk about the you know, primary 420 00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:26.049 focus is the issue of abortion, but I think these issues. I'm reading 421 00:27:26.089 --> 00:27:30.640 stuff, you know, from pro choice or pro life, sorry, sources 422 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:34.359 online talking about assistant suicide, youth and Asian that sort of thing. One 423 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.440 young lady, I don't know if you read this story. When young lady, 424 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:40.759 I think she was twenty three. Twenty three years old, I believe, 425 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:45.349 is in the Netherlands. It was somewhere across the pond there and twenty 426 00:27:45.390 --> 00:27:48.430 three years old. No, physical issues really going on, but she had 427 00:27:48.509 --> 00:27:53.190 extreme depression. She had been, I think, a sexually a victim of 428 00:27:53.269 --> 00:27:56.789 sexual molestation or something like that, and just dealing with this depression. Her 429 00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:03.940 psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, kind of three meads at it, counseling whatever, 430 00:28:03.980 --> 00:28:06.259 and I guess she'd been in some kind of counseling. Anyway, long 431 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.220 story short, they basically said, hey, listen, there's nothing else we 432 00:28:08.259 --> 00:28:12.410 can do for you. The best thing you could do probably is is assistant 433 00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:15.730 suicide. Yeah, it's like twenty three years old. They basically told her. 434 00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.369 The people are supposed to help her basically told her, sorry, there's 435 00:28:18.410 --> 00:28:22.450 no real help for you. Your life really is not worth living. I 436 00:28:22.490 --> 00:28:26.089 mean that to me. That's what they're telling yeah, and there's a story 437 00:28:26.170 --> 00:28:29.920 in Canada. A young man, I think thirty nine years old, or 438 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:32.640 maybe early, for he's not, you know, not terribly old, had 439 00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.799 some some some illness where he needed ongoing treatment and whatever. I mean the 440 00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:41.390 guy still functional, you know, he's not like completely like vegetable or whatever, 441 00:28:42.109 --> 00:28:47.589 still functional, but basically they were he had to have ongoing care in 442 00:28:47.789 --> 00:28:49.950 home care and they basically said, hey, listen, the money's run out 443 00:28:49.990 --> 00:28:53.470 for this thing and we really can't do anything else. This is probably your 444 00:28:53.470 --> 00:28:59.579 best option, which is Ethan, Asia or suicide. So, you know, 445 00:28:59.660 --> 00:29:03.140 their stories grieve me because what it seems to me is, as a 446 00:29:03.259 --> 00:29:06.819 society, the very thing that that US Christians have warned about for a long 447 00:29:06.859 --> 00:29:10.009 time, which is this whole assistant suicide, youth and Asia abortion thing, 448 00:29:10.569 --> 00:29:14.450 has stripped away the intrinsic value of human life. And now we're on the 449 00:29:14.809 --> 00:29:18.049 downward spiral where, you know, we're going to be putting people in old 450 00:29:18.089 --> 00:29:21.049 folks homes to death. We're going to be I mean, that's happened peoper. 451 00:29:21.130 --> 00:29:22.930 Yeah, keep it cheaper, because we're looking at the numbers and we're 452 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:27.640 looking at I mean, if you come from an atheistic, naturalistic mindset, 453 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:33.000 then human beings are nothing more than just evolved animals. That so how do 454 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:37.400 you, how do you tie these these issues in together? Euthanasia, assisted 455 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:41.789 suicide, abortion? Don't really want to talk about the death penalty. Think 456 00:29:41.950 --> 00:29:45.390 that I do want to have that conversation. I think we're going to do 457 00:29:45.430 --> 00:29:48.230 a podcast about that because I think that's an important so yeah, but I 458 00:29:48.309 --> 00:29:51.069 think it is a separate issue because we're dealing with, you know, a 459 00:29:51.109 --> 00:29:53.220 guilty party, and there's some arguments to be made on both sides of for 460 00:29:53.299 --> 00:29:57.220 that. But just those three issues, using these Ethan Asia, assist suicide 461 00:29:57.299 --> 00:30:00.859 and abortion, how do these tie in together in your mind from a philosophical 462 00:30:02.019 --> 00:30:04.500 yeah, I mean I think a lot of it is because it is. 463 00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:08.970 It's it's viewed as more of this functionalist view of a human being rather the 464 00:30:10.210 --> 00:30:12.890 intrinsic value of a human yeah, so it's because, you know, these 465 00:30:12.930 --> 00:30:18.609 people are old, they can't offer anything, they can't contribute anything, therefore 466 00:30:18.650 --> 00:30:22.119 they don't have value. Yeah, same thing as kind of conferred on the 467 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:26.880 unborn right, is that they don't. They're just these parasites. They're not 468 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:32.960 offering anything, they're not helping, they're just sucking resources, and so it's 469 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.990 looked at more of like what can you do, rather than you're valuable for 470 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:40.789 who you are. Yeah, a lot of the arguments that go for youth 471 00:30:40.829 --> 00:30:45.230 and Asia and abortion really go hand in glove. Yeah, and it's because 472 00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.109 it's this idea of this worldview that, you know, we're just were molecules 473 00:30:48.190 --> 00:30:55.500 in motion, nothing outside of the box. And so Dr Geisler and Dr 474 00:30:55.619 --> 00:31:00.019 Turk wrote a really good book legislating morality, also, Dr Geisler, is 475 00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:03.849 Christian ethics that has whole chapters on these issues. But what they show on 476 00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:07.690 legislating morality was so many of these people, you know talk about in the 477 00:31:07.890 --> 00:31:12.609 in the Netherlands, where this is, you know, legal, who were 478 00:31:12.650 --> 00:31:15.089 going to do it. They didn't end up doing it. They were so 479 00:31:15.250 --> 00:31:18.279 glad they didn't. Yeah, it was a time of depression. It was 480 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.200 something that they fell into, but it passed. Yeah, you know, 481 00:31:22.759 --> 00:31:27.039 these consequences is our eternal when you're talking convincing somebody, well, you know, 482 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:30.160 you might as well just, you know, kill yourself because it's not 483 00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.430 going to get better. Yeah, that is you know, when the horse 484 00:31:33.470 --> 00:31:37.710 falls down and breaks the leg and you take it out back and shoot it. 485 00:31:37.910 --> 00:31:40.750 Yeah, we do with animals, right, don't do that with human 486 00:31:40.829 --> 00:31:44.910 beings. And it's because human beings are valuable and we would say, ultimately, 487 00:31:44.950 --> 00:31:48.779 as Christians, it's grounded in because we're made in the image of God. 488 00:31:48.940 --> 00:31:52.539 Yeah, you know, and most people, I can I think they 489 00:31:52.660 --> 00:31:56.220 know human beings are valuable. They may not know how to ground that exactly, 490 00:31:56.180 --> 00:32:00.140 but yeah, people, most people, if you ask, are humans 491 00:32:00.180 --> 00:32:02.009 more valuable than a cockroach. They're going to say, yeah, he was 492 00:32:02.049 --> 00:32:07.130 more in. What it shows is betrays to the atheist is they're inconsistent world 493 00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:10.730 view. Yeah, because if they were consistent with their worldview, we really 494 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:15.329 wouldn't be yeah, we're just molecules and motion. Yeah. Yeah, we 495 00:32:15.650 --> 00:32:19.359 do sink to the level of where human life really has then ceased to have 496 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:24.400 value and we are a society that is slatching towards all of these horrific really 497 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:30.910 forms of murder. Yeah, portion assisted suicide and and euthanasia. Yeah, 498 00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:32.630 eithering that that's true. That I mean. I think it is just from 499 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:37.750 observation, but just even conversations with the students and stuff. Do you see 500 00:32:37.190 --> 00:32:43.750 that society is sort of going toward this downward spiral of human beings no longer 501 00:32:43.829 --> 00:32:47.259 have intrinsic value or just like animals? The you see that in conversations? 502 00:32:47.339 --> 00:32:51.819 It's a good question. See some of the polls that I've seen recently show 503 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:54.460 is actually a spite in. Okay, but hold to the pro life position. 504 00:32:54.460 --> 00:32:58.569 Yeah, so I get I think a lot of it is there is 505 00:32:58.769 --> 00:33:04.970 this confusion of when does life begin? I think if it really if we 506 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:08.890 were really seeing that, then these numbers of second third trimesters. People should 507 00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:12.920 be okay with it. Yeah, but most people aren't. So I almost 508 00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.960 see it as this view of natural law or natural theology where people see it's 509 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:22.039 a general revelation that even up their world views are inconsistent with it. We 510 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:29.029 know it's wrong to torture babies for fun or, you know, murder innocent 511 00:33:29.109 --> 00:33:31.230 human beings. We know it. Yeah, we know it. We suppressed 512 00:33:31.269 --> 00:33:35.829 it, Romans one says. We try and suppress that. Yeah, but 513 00:33:36.029 --> 00:33:37.470 we know it now. I think we can ever get rid of that, 514 00:33:38.349 --> 00:33:44.180 even if we sink to some pretty evil things. Yeah. So, okay, 515 00:33:44.220 --> 00:33:46.500 so a thought comes to mind. I mentioned we, mean Vickie, 516 00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:52.339 did a podcast and we mentioned the Judith Jarvis Thompson argument. The podcasts focus 517 00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:57.089 around because sort of my body, my choice in this self idolatry right, 518 00:33:57.210 --> 00:34:00.690 that that self is God and that God no longer enters into the equation. 519 00:34:01.730 --> 00:34:07.449 So you could it be with with euthanasia and with assistant suicide, because I 520 00:34:07.530 --> 00:34:10.760 hear when I talk to some pro choice people and they talk about sister suicide, 521 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.920 they talk about Ethan Asia, mainly about sister suicide, and the arguments 522 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.039 they use for that are like bodily autonomy arguments. Right, a person has 523 00:34:20.079 --> 00:34:23.079 a right to have themselves put to death, right, and and so do 524 00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:29.110 you see that sort as being a separation between the issue of abortion and assistant 525 00:34:29.150 --> 00:34:30.869 suicide and that sort of thing? You understand when them when? Yeah, 526 00:34:31.070 --> 00:34:34.710 you're saying, like with with that, is that they want their they want 527 00:34:34.750 --> 00:34:37.389 to control their own destiny. Right, yeah, they want to control their 528 00:34:37.389 --> 00:34:39.780 own destiny. But then you're saying, and I think the numbers definitely the 529 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:44.340 numbers beared out where you're seeing more and more people becoming prolife. Yeah, 530 00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:46.820 so there's sort of like even in within the pro choice people that we would 531 00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:50.539 kind of lump together with, you know, their pro abortion, the pro 532 00:34:50.659 --> 00:34:53.250 euthanasia, pross assistants suicide. There's kind of a divide there. Yeah, 533 00:34:53.409 --> 00:34:58.130 those people, so that more of them are seeing the inconsistencies and sort of 534 00:34:58.130 --> 00:35:00.690 the my body, my choice argument for abortion. Right, they can see 535 00:35:00.690 --> 00:35:05.210 the consistencies maybe with that for suicide, but before abortion their starting to say, 536 00:35:05.250 --> 00:35:07.960 okay, science is showing us this is a separate body, separate person. 537 00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:10.239 You think that's sort of what's going on? Yeah, I think it 538 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.719 is, because, like with you, like thing with the abortion it's is 539 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.119 there's another person in play. Yeah, as to where euthanasia, it's just 540 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:20.960 them and it's, you know, this idea of this death with dignity, 541 00:35:21.510 --> 00:35:23.949 but in reality it's coward us. Yeah, really is cowardice. Okay, 542 00:35:23.949 --> 00:35:28.269 I mean they're you. How you don't know if God's going to heal you. 543 00:35:28.309 --> 00:35:31.309 You don't know what God's going to do through that with other people. 544 00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:35.860 Your body is not your own, your life is not. Yeah, it 545 00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:38.820 doesn't mean you have to go through extraordinary means to stay alive. You know, 546 00:35:38.900 --> 00:35:42.460 we got a friend who, you know, the mom's like in her 547 00:35:42.980 --> 00:35:46.420 s and you know, stage four, you know, renal failure and all 548 00:35:46.460 --> 00:35:50.650 these things. She's going to die. So obviously wouldn't say. You know, 549 00:35:50.849 --> 00:35:53.690 she starts to go in and, you know, resuscitated all that. 550 00:35:53.809 --> 00:35:59.409 That's that's that's not the same. But you know, it's this idea that, 551 00:35:59.769 --> 00:36:02.409 you know, it's my body, I can do what I want, 552 00:36:02.610 --> 00:36:06.360 my decision, and it's just not, you know, especially if you're a 553 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.239 Christian. That's yeah, definitely not the way it is. Yeah, you 554 00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:13.239 know it is uncertain, it is unknown, you don't know what you're going 555 00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:15.880 to get. You know it's but it's trusting in God. He Mall. 556 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.030 It may heal you, he may not, but he can use your story 557 00:36:20.269 --> 00:36:22.309 and you to bring other people to the Kingdom and at the end of the 558 00:36:22.349 --> 00:36:27.590 day, that is a Christian that's the goal. Yeah, right, and 559 00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:30.989 absolutely. Yeah, if you can talk about because I hear this all the 560 00:36:31.030 --> 00:36:37.900 time in all three of those areas, that but this prevents unbearable suffering and 561 00:36:38.179 --> 00:36:43.300 we would kill our dog. We take our dog andice when our dog is 562 00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:45.099 it took me a long time before I was able to do that, but 563 00:36:45.179 --> 00:36:49.010 we do do that, most of us do. Yeah, to prevent suffering. 564 00:36:49.210 --> 00:36:51.489 So, and that argument is used in all three of those cases, 565 00:36:51.610 --> 00:36:55.849 youth the nation, abortion and and assisted suicide. Is there is unbearable suffering, 566 00:36:57.250 --> 00:37:00.010 suffering to the mother. In the case of abortion, she is going 567 00:37:00.090 --> 00:37:01.840 to suffer or sometimes, in the case of the baby, the baby is 568 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.559 going to be born with some hert horrific disease that it's only going to cause 569 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.000 suffering their entire life. So, biblically, can you talk to that? 570 00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:13.920 How do you dismantle that? Well, like with that that example of will 571 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:16.349 the baby is going to be born and it's going to have these particular physical 572 00:37:16.429 --> 00:37:21.389 problems. I would say you you would treat that the same way you would 573 00:37:21.389 --> 00:37:24.190 as if a todd or was in a terrible car accident and and they were 574 00:37:24.349 --> 00:37:29.190 going to, you know, die soon. You wouldn't get a pillow, 575 00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:31.900 wouldn't smother it or take it up back and shoot it. You offer comfort 576 00:37:32.019 --> 00:37:36.860 and love and hope, but you know, as it as it as the 577 00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:40.860 baby passes away. As far as being against it because of the unbearable suffering, 578 00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:45.769 etc. Well, I mean, you know, nobody wants to suffer, 579 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:49.969 but good things can happen through our suffering. Look at the cross, 580 00:37:50.170 --> 00:37:53.530 look at Jesus. Yeah, good things can happen through the suffering and it 581 00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:59.719 is a testimony of God working in us, through us and with other people. 582 00:37:59.800 --> 00:38:02.480 The reason we don't take human beings out back and shoot them like an 583 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:07.199 animal or take them to the bed and euthanize them like a dog is because 584 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.119 of that. We're not animals. Were he hands different? That's why there's 585 00:38:12.119 --> 00:38:17.110 a distinction there right treat we don't treat humans like dogs. Yes, yeah, 586 00:38:17.110 --> 00:38:22.070 and that's, you know, our our main go I was actually again 587 00:38:22.150 --> 00:38:27.420 talking to one of the pro choice ladies and just sharing with her. You 588 00:38:27.460 --> 00:38:29.699 know our goal is, we want to say, babies in front of you. 589 00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:32.179 A portion we're there to speak on behalf of those babies. But another 590 00:38:32.980 --> 00:38:37.940 sort of secondary, maybe not secondary, I don't know, just maybe in 591 00:38:37.539 --> 00:38:44.409 overarching sort of reason why we're out there is to protect and guard the value 592 00:38:44.449 --> 00:38:46.530 of human life. You know, I sort of see it as in my 593 00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:51.010 city there's dirty people that are going to die and I know where it's going 594 00:38:51.090 --> 00:38:53.969 to happen, I know when it's going to happen and in order to guard 595 00:38:54.050 --> 00:38:58.920 those individuals, but also to guard this thing called the sanctity of human life 596 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.039 or the intrinsic value of human life. If that's happening in to my city 597 00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:05.360 and I don't do something about it, then I'm sort of I'm sort of 598 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:07.440 part of the problem. Not that I don't mean that as condemnation for people 599 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:10.150 that are not involved in what I'm doing. I'm not saying what I'm doing 600 00:39:10.309 --> 00:39:14.230 is the most important, although I think it might be, but I think 601 00:39:14.230 --> 00:39:15.590 it's very important. Yeah, but I mean when we, you know, 602 00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:19.710 it ties into a lot when we when we talk about the intrinsic value of 603 00:39:19.750 --> 00:39:23.380 human life and then we really do nothing, we turn a blind eye to 604 00:39:23.619 --> 00:39:28.420 what's going on. It's it's sort of chips away at that and we sort 605 00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:31.099 of add to this idea that human life maybe doesn't have any value. You 606 00:39:31.179 --> 00:39:36.420 Look, even the Christians don't care so much, right, and so you 607 00:39:36.500 --> 00:39:38.329 know, I think one of the things that we do, and with the 608 00:39:38.409 --> 00:39:40.849 pro choice lady, I told her, listen, you're here and I think 609 00:39:40.849 --> 00:39:44.849 you're here to guard something that to use, very precious, which is a 610 00:39:44.889 --> 00:39:46.809 woman's right to choose. Now, from my perspective it's a woman's right to 611 00:39:46.849 --> 00:39:50.929 choose to kill her child, right, but I understand your guarden something that's 612 00:39:50.929 --> 00:39:53.559 precious to you, but understand that we're also trying to guard something that's precious 613 00:39:53.559 --> 00:39:58.400 to us, those individual babies, but also the sanctity of human life. 614 00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.480 Can you speak to from, you know, an apologetics, Biblical and philosophical 615 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:09.030 perspective, kind of how we, as believers, guard human the sanctity of 616 00:40:09.070 --> 00:40:15.429 human life, and how we uphold that value so that society, secular society 617 00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:20.070 and whatever religious society, looks and says, okay, there's something to what 618 00:40:20.150 --> 00:40:23.659 these Christians are saying. How do how do we give those good philosophical arguments, 619 00:40:23.699 --> 00:40:28.099 biblical arguments and maintain that. Yeah, I mean I think it goes 620 00:40:28.219 --> 00:40:35.019 back to showing when life begins, because life begins a conception. We're human 621 00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:37.809 beings. Were not, you know, other than that, and because human 622 00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:42.769 beings. I mean it's going to go right back to really special revelation. 623 00:40:43.210 --> 00:40:45.409 Okay, how do we know we're different than pandas and bear? Yeah, 624 00:40:45.409 --> 00:40:49.289 I do. We have more value. Well, I'm not going to find 625 00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:51.800 that in nature, other than if I was to look. Maybe it's some 626 00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:53.480 of these like well, you know, we can think, can we can 627 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:59.159 do more? Yeah, but it needs to be specially revealed to us that 628 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.309 we have souls, we we have eternal life if we believe in Jesus. 629 00:41:05.389 --> 00:41:07.670 Not even angels, you know, have these things. They're not made in 630 00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:10.550 the image of God. People are made in the image of God. Yeah, 631 00:41:10.750 --> 00:41:15.869 and so we just deduce that basically through a proper world view, which 632 00:41:15.909 --> 00:41:19.940 is a Christian world view, and know that we have dignity, we have 633 00:41:20.099 --> 00:41:23.699 value, we are made in the image of God because the Bible is true. 634 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.739 It can be shown to be true because Jesus rose from the dead. 635 00:41:29.019 --> 00:41:31.619 There's good arguments to believe Jesus rose from the dead, good arguments to believe 636 00:41:31.659 --> 00:41:37.130 that God created the universe. And so if Jesus is God, whatever Jesus 637 00:41:37.210 --> 00:41:40.289 teaches is true. Jesus teaches, you know, man is made in the 638 00:41:40.329 --> 00:41:47.719 image of God. Therefore humans have spiritiual intrinsic value. Yeah, so when 639 00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:52.360 you're dealing with I mean, ultimately to me it does has come back around 640 00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.559 to the Gospel. Yeah, it comes back around to what God did on 641 00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:00.719 behalf of human beings. You know, I'm sort of you know, I 642 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.469 know people that are presubsiditional apologists and like take a hard line approach on that 643 00:42:05.510 --> 00:42:07.989 stuff and if you're making arguments for the existence of God, your sort outside 644 00:42:08.070 --> 00:42:13.630 the the boundaries there, and I'm sort of I'm almost that. Actually, 645 00:42:14.110 --> 00:42:15.460 then I'm not that, you know, because I make argument being this. 646 00:42:15.739 --> 00:42:20.099 Yeah, I don't think I will be, because I think actually the scripture 647 00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:24.059 gives us good reason to argue from creation that there's a god on all these 648 00:42:24.219 --> 00:42:29.940 all these other things. But it really does come back down to sharing from 649 00:42:30.010 --> 00:42:35.010 the truth of God's Word and and that point that you made, and I 650 00:42:35.170 --> 00:42:37.329 probably ask this with with but as this younging. If you know who Jason 651 00:42:37.369 --> 00:42:42.610 Himnez is, but we've talked about you know he's apologize. Guide does a 652 00:42:42.650 --> 00:42:45.119 lot of apologetic stuff and and we've talked about it. Vicky and I talked 653 00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:50.559 about this image of God thing like this, this this idea that human beings 654 00:42:50.599 --> 00:42:53.079 are made in the image of God, which I think it ultimately comes back 655 00:42:53.199 --> 00:42:58.909 to. And then we see, of course, Jesus coming and and really 656 00:42:58.949 --> 00:43:01.070 showing you sort of the value of what it is to be made in the 657 00:43:01.110 --> 00:43:05.469 image of God by laying his life down to redeem those who remain the image 658 00:43:05.469 --> 00:43:07.590 of God. Jesus didn't die for angels or he didn't die for dogs or 659 00:43:07.670 --> 00:43:10.750 cats, he didn't die for you know, whatever he did. He died 660 00:43:10.789 --> 00:43:15.539 for human beings. But if you could real quick, because I don't know 661 00:43:15.579 --> 00:43:20.019 if there's any like perfect definition for this, but just give me an idea 662 00:43:20.059 --> 00:43:22.780 of what you think the Bible teaches about being made in the image of God, 663 00:43:23.139 --> 00:43:27.650 what that what that means, how we wrap our minds around that concept. 664 00:43:27.690 --> 00:43:29.650 So, yeah, that's a good question and you know, I don't 665 00:43:29.690 --> 00:43:31.250 know if there is a single answer, because you have a lot of theologians 666 00:43:31.329 --> 00:43:35.650 that will debate that exactly what it means. I think you can know some 667 00:43:35.769 --> 00:43:38.369 things that it's not. Yeah, it doesn't mean physically. Okay, because, 668 00:43:40.090 --> 00:43:43.840 let's see, John Four hundred and twenty four. You know, God 669 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.320 is spirit. Those who worshiping must worshipman, Spirit and truth. But thirty 670 00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:51.840 nine, a spirit does not have flesh and blood. You know, you 671 00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.639 see, I have so. Therefore, you know, if God is a 672 00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:57.550 spirit, Spirit still off flesh and blood. God is in that flesh. 673 00:43:57.670 --> 00:44:00.230 Yeah, sure, Jesus, human nature, etc. But yeah, so 674 00:44:00.349 --> 00:44:04.949 God is not a physical being. I think what you could say is is 675 00:44:05.110 --> 00:44:08.150 it's some of the things we know it is. We have the ability to 676 00:44:08.309 --> 00:44:12.340 think, we have the ability to be rational, we have the ability to 677 00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:15.420 ponder things. The meaning of life. Why are we here? Where do 678 00:44:15.539 --> 00:44:21.019 we go when we die? Is Certain, you know, propositions, true 679 00:44:21.019 --> 00:44:22.940 or false? We can debate those things. It seems to be one of 680 00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:27.449 the you know, the big distinction between US and other animals, or some 681 00:44:27.610 --> 00:44:31.650 intelligence and some other animals. But not where you're seeing the artwork, prayer, 682 00:44:32.210 --> 00:44:37.769 meditation, writing, books, music, seems to be something, you 683 00:44:37.889 --> 00:44:44.079 know, in the in the rational soul, separates us from other yeah, 684 00:44:44.440 --> 00:44:49.920 you think creativity has into that, and God is obviously creative. Yeah, 685 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.670 you see all he's aid thought just popped in the mind like man. What 686 00:44:52.789 --> 00:44:57.150 you're saying, this is like creativity, is the the ability to invent new 687 00:44:57.269 --> 00:45:00.150 things and the CO come up with new concepts and ideas and in art and 688 00:45:00.230 --> 00:45:04.949 all those things. Because to me that is a that is a deep question. 689 00:45:05.429 --> 00:45:08.059 It's a question I think we as Christians need to have best answer we 690 00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:12.260 can. Yeah, but also to ponder, because I think it's you know, 691 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:14.940 it's deep in the sense that it calls us to self reflect. What 692 00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:16.460 does it mean mean for me to be made in the image of God? 693 00:45:16.699 --> 00:45:21.059 Right, and and what does that entail? If I made in the image 694 00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:23.570 of God, how does that how am I to live? You made in 695 00:45:23.570 --> 00:45:28.210 the image of God and you got groups like Mormon that go really wrong on 696 00:45:28.369 --> 00:45:30.769 that and end up with God who is a physical being. We are not 697 00:45:30.929 --> 00:45:35.050 only vexed our view of them, but also effects of you of who God 698 00:45:35.210 --> 00:45:37.760 is. Yeah, it's an important question, for sure. Yeah, it 699 00:45:38.159 --> 00:45:44.400 related to that. Would you say that that is the absolute basic truth of 700 00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:47.519 what gives us value, is the fact that we are made in the image 701 00:45:47.519 --> 00:45:51.349 of God? Would that be the verse? Yeah, I mean, I 702 00:45:51.469 --> 00:45:53.110 don't see. I don't see the way around it. I mean, I 703 00:45:53.230 --> 00:45:57.030 know how to offer. I know how to debate with it. You know, 704 00:45:57.670 --> 00:46:01.309 with an atheist you use using kind of natural law. But as far 705 00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:06.780 as getting down to the grounding is to well, why are human beings more 706 00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:09.340 special than other creatures? I don't see how you get out of it other 707 00:46:09.420 --> 00:46:12.579 than we're made in the image of God. Right, right, and that 708 00:46:12.619 --> 00:46:15.179 Christian world view is true, you know. And and what something else in 709 00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:19.090 one of you said about what is the meaning in life? So so, 710 00:46:19.409 --> 00:46:21.969 another way of saying that. What is our purpose? And does the Bible 711 00:46:22.010 --> 00:46:24.409 address that? What is our purpose? A general purpose? We all have 712 00:46:24.889 --> 00:46:30.809 specific purposes, but what is our general purpose biblically, because I think that 713 00:46:30.050 --> 00:46:34.679 is related very much to what we're discussing. It is it's to know him, 714 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.679 no, Jesus, and to make him known. Yeah, that's that 715 00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:40.840 is the whole purpose of life, being united to Christ. You know, 716 00:46:42.440 --> 00:46:45.679 when we love somebody, to love somebody is to will the best for that 717 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:49.869 person. If I love Daniel, the best for Daniel is what united to 718 00:46:49.909 --> 00:46:52.429 Jesus Christ. Right, if I love my Muslim neighbor, what's the best 719 00:46:52.469 --> 00:46:57.070 thing I can do? It is not a firm them and hey, whatever 720 00:46:57.110 --> 00:47:00.429 I believe is great. That is hating, right. Yeah, best thing 721 00:47:00.469 --> 00:47:04.460 I could do to love him, to share the gospel my pro choice friend. 722 00:47:04.780 --> 00:47:07.179 Right, what's the best thing I can do? See Her united to 723 00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:12.420 Jesus Christ. Yeah, out, abortion is going to cause pain suffering. 724 00:47:13.460 --> 00:47:15.849 You know, she's gonna have a hard time with that the rest of her 725 00:47:15.929 --> 00:47:19.050 life. Right, and the baby will end up dead. Yeah, you 726 00:47:19.170 --> 00:47:21.929 know. So, if I love them, the best thing I can do 727 00:47:22.130 --> 00:47:25.730 introduced her to Jesus Christ, who can heal her and, yeah, and 728 00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:30.039 raise from the dead. Amen. That's that's good. Well, I mean, 729 00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:34.559 I think with that man, I think we'll wrap this this thing up, 730 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.719 if you're cool with that. If he don't know if he had anything 731 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.519 else you wanted to Oh maybe just real quick. The Life House. Me 732 00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:42.920 and my wife are okay. Yeah, Life Aus. It's a rock. 733 00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:46.510 He'll you know. We don't making any money off of it or anything, 734 00:47:46.590 --> 00:47:51.710 but it's a place. I think it holds about five beds for women who 735 00:47:51.750 --> 00:47:55.469 were in crisis pregnancy issue. So if you guys, you know anybody out 736 00:47:55.469 --> 00:48:00.659 there listening, if you run across the woman or whatever that is pregnant in 737 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:05.699 is need of housing in that you know, contact of Life House. Okay, 738 00:48:05.860 --> 00:48:07.780 Ron, it's the Rocciola lifehouse. Yeah, and rock you. What 739 00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:12.139 age? Is there in age specification on how young and how well they're so 740 00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:15.530 nope, okay, no, we can take teenagers and sometimes it's a, 741 00:48:15.650 --> 00:48:17.730 you know, best situation. And how do people get in touch with you? 742 00:48:19.289 --> 00:48:23.610 Yeah, if you go to Devon or Melissa PLU at Rashio Christie are 743 00:48:24.090 --> 00:48:28.559 page, will pull right up. Okay, and look at our youtube page, 744 00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.360 Rashoe, Christie, winthrop, and all of our talks that we do 745 00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:35.840 their on online. Okay, cool. And you guys do a podcast to 746 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.000 you said, yeah, theology matters with the polues. been doing that for 747 00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:42.869 about eight years and now, okay, theology matters with the police. I'll 748 00:48:42.909 --> 00:48:45.269 do my best to how to put a link to all this stuff, sure 749 00:48:45.469 --> 00:48:49.030 in the in the show notes on the really thank you know. Thank you, 750 00:48:49.110 --> 00:48:52.150 guys. You guys are out here doing doing the heavy lifting. By 751 00:48:52.230 --> 00:48:55.980 the grace of God, relates some privilege. Vilege. Just do a great, 752 00:48:57.019 --> 00:49:00.219 great one. You think you would. You'd feel qualified and the you'd 753 00:49:00.260 --> 00:49:02.500 beat more than qualified to come back at some point and talk about the issue 754 00:49:02.539 --> 00:49:07.219 of the death penalty. That's something you pondered. Oh Yeah, because you're 755 00:49:07.219 --> 00:49:09.730 always accused of being a hypocrite. Sure, yeah, I'd like to talk 756 00:49:09.769 --> 00:49:13.849 about that. You can't get into that on this on this episode. Yeah, 757 00:49:13.849 --> 00:49:15.730 I mean, Oh man, okay, yeah, we'll do that in 758 00:49:15.769 --> 00:49:19.130 the common weeks months. But yeah, so we appreciate all those who have 759 00:49:19.329 --> 00:49:22.409 listened in it and we appreciate you joining in with us. Appreciate you, 760 00:49:22.530 --> 00:49:24.280 Devin, coming for you know how to get in touch with us if you've 761 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:27.519 listened to the PODCAST, but I'll mention it again. You can get in 762 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:31.039 touch with me, D parks, at cities for Life Dot orgcom cities for 763 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:36.519 the number four, lifecom. You get touched with Vicki vcassi, org at 764 00:49:36.559 --> 00:49:39.469 cities for lifecom. Our website is Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org. 765 00:49:39.989 --> 00:49:44.630 And then we have again, as we mentioned often, national website to help 766 00:49:44.750 --> 00:49:47.309 just chant, train and equip sidewall counselors, because that's I think that's that's 767 00:49:47.349 --> 00:49:50.670 our calling, that's what we do. I think we do it pretty well, 768 00:49:50.989 --> 00:49:55.019 and that is www dot sidewalks, the number for lifecom, and that's 769 00:49:55.019 --> 00:49:58.900 just an equipping website. So you can get on there and get some information 770 00:49:58.940 --> 00:50:02.699 about sidewall counseling. Also send us some some questions, maybe some things that 771 00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:07.010 you some jet suggestions, things we could do better on the podcast, questions 772 00:50:07.090 --> 00:50:10.369 that we can answer, try to answer guests that maybe we can have on 773 00:50:10.969 --> 00:50:15.090 and and we'd love to hear from you guys on that end. But other 774 00:50:15.170 --> 00:50:20.690 than that, we appreciate you listening. And God, lets use mil use 775 00:50:20.889 --> 00:50:39.389 me, give me, give me, it will cost me my life, 776 00:50:43.869 --> 00:50:45.710 but not things too prescious inside