Can You Be Prochoice and A Christian?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, s and me. 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:10.349 Lord, I welcome to Gospel Center Prolife, the podcast where we talk 3 00:00:10.390 --> 00:00:13.630 about pro life issues in light of the Gospel. In this episode we're going 4 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:17.910 to ask the question can you be pro choice and a Christian? Hope your 5 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:26.260 blessed is you listen to this episode. Stay tuned. I felt show passish 6 00:00:27.339 --> 00:00:35.219 touch your heart. Use. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. 7 00:00:36.570 --> 00:00:40.570 In our episodes we want to deal with issues that people face, questions that 8 00:00:40.649 --> 00:00:44.929 people have about pro life issues and again, the whole focus of this podcast 9 00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:49.329 is talking about pro life issues and abortion in the light of the Gospel. 10 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.000 And so we want to talk today and the question just came in my mind 11 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:55.759 the other day, just based on some stuff that I'd read on facebook and 12 00:00:55.840 --> 00:01:00.119 you know, certainly a lot of these these debates and questions aren't new, 13 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.670 but the question of can you be pro choice and a Christian, and I'd 14 00:01:04.709 --> 00:01:07.430 send you an emails at these this is like something I think we need to 15 00:01:07.510 --> 00:01:12.109 cover because it's a question that people have. You know, we encounter pro 16 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:17.069 abortion people on a regular basis in our outreach at the local abortion clinics. 17 00:01:17.469 --> 00:01:23.540 Their pro abortion advocates that stand out there with signs and whatnot who some claim 18 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:26.500 to be Christians, yea, and claim to at least have some knowledge of 19 00:01:26.739 --> 00:01:33.170 God. And so to me is an important question. Can you be pro 20 00:01:33.329 --> 00:01:36.569 choice and a Christian at the same time? Can you be, you know, 21 00:01:36.650 --> 00:01:40.090 we talked about being pro choice. We're talking about, I mean that's 22 00:01:40.129 --> 00:01:44.730 what we call it, pro abortion because ultimately they are for abortion being a 23 00:01:45.329 --> 00:01:49.640 you know, woman's right, a valid choice. Correct. Yeah, no, 24 00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.599 I'd say in some sense. Now I've actually talked to pro choice people 25 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:56.920 before and said, you know, I think you know, I'm pro choice 26 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:01.390 in the sense that God gives us the ability to choose. It's just that 27 00:02:01.590 --> 00:02:06.230 what you do with that choice, with your choices, is what you're ultimately 28 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:10.270 held accountable for when you stand before before the Lord. So you know we're 29 00:02:10.270 --> 00:02:15.229 going to tackle that question a little bit and and so let's just jump right 30 00:02:15.349 --> 00:02:21.180 into it. What can you be pro choice and a Christian at the same 31 00:02:21.259 --> 00:02:27.099 time? Is that possible? And and my answers no, I think. 32 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:30.370 I think you know, and hopefully we'll go into a little more depth probably 33 00:02:30.409 --> 00:02:36.729 about why why we would say that. But you know, I think for 34 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:42.650 all questions in life you go to scripture. If you call yourself a Christian, 35 00:02:42.689 --> 00:02:46.960 and that's what our premises are. You're calling yourself a Christian and you're 36 00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:52.039 saying that pro choice is a or probe to have an abortion is a valid 37 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.800 choice. Well, if you're a Christian, you should be able to support 38 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:02.150 that choice. YEA, as far as I'm concerned, you know, with 39 00:03:02.509 --> 00:03:08.590 having conversations about about this on a regular basis with people. Really the truth 40 00:03:08.629 --> 00:03:15.740 of the matter is Christianity cannot be separated from the Bible. Right, Christianity 41 00:03:15.860 --> 00:03:22.860 and the Bible are our are married together. You cannot have Christianity without the 42 00:03:22.979 --> 00:03:28.330 Bible. And so as Christians like what? Why would we even call ourselves 43 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:32.289 Christians if we're not going to embrace the book that talks about Christ I had 44 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:37.770 a conversation with a young man yesterday who asked me to prove Christianity is true 45 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:43.360 without using the Bible. I said that's an absurdity because Christianity is a historical 46 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:47.639 religion built on a historical event, the resurrection of Jesus, and the main 47 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:52.639 source for that historical event is a historical book called the New Testament. And 48 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.669 you're asking me to prove history without using a history book, and that's an 49 00:03:55.669 --> 00:04:01.349 absurdity. Yeah, Christianity and the Bible are inseparable, right. And so 50 00:04:02.509 --> 00:04:09.750 what I guess the question is really what does the scripture say about life in 51 00:04:09.870 --> 00:04:13.180 the womb? You know, as we began with our first podcast, what 52 00:04:13.259 --> 00:04:15.860 does it mean to be Gospel centered in prolife? We were in the book, 53 00:04:15.899 --> 00:04:19.259 we're in the Bible. That is Vicky's got her for us. He's 54 00:04:19.300 --> 00:04:23.300 got our huge Bible here that obviously is going to give a us all that 55 00:04:23.339 --> 00:04:29.050 we need to know about about what abortion and life means to the Lord. 56 00:04:29.730 --> 00:04:32.250 But so kind of you know, some thoughts on that as far as you 57 00:04:32.410 --> 00:04:36.769 Christianity the word of God in the issue of abortion? Yeah, yeah, 58 00:04:36.769 --> 00:04:40.959 and you know, you got to start with, I think, the the 59 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:45.560 basics, which is, first of all, sanctity of life. Yes, 60 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.879 sacred value of human life. Is there a sacred value of human life? 61 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:55.110 Does God speak about that? And and we know he does, from from 62 00:04:55.149 --> 00:04:58.110 the beginning, from the book, and you know, of Genesis, the 63 00:04:58.149 --> 00:05:00.910 first book in the Bible, Jennifis Genesis one hundred and twenty seven. So 64 00:05:01.069 --> 00:05:04.870 God created man in his own image, in the image of God He created 65 00:05:04.949 --> 00:05:10.379 them, created him male and female. He created them. So right away 66 00:05:10.420 --> 00:05:14.980 from the get go, from the first book, it's God who created human 67 00:05:15.019 --> 00:05:17.860 beings in his image, and I think it's really important to talk about what 68 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:21.449 that means. What does it mean to be created in the image of God? 69 00:05:21.649 --> 00:05:27.490 Yeah, because that probably is what is the value statement? Yeah, 70 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:32.009 and and that there's already gender assigned, male and female, and from the 71 00:05:32.410 --> 00:05:36.439 moment of creation, because it's when he created them, he created them male 72 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:41.000 and female. And then right away after that, in Verse Twenty Eight, 73 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.959 fill the earth and subdue it, rule over the fish of the sea, 74 00:05:44.040 --> 00:05:46.000 the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground. 75 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:50.550 So we're given dominion, there is a hierarchy and and the human beings 76 00:05:50.709 --> 00:06:00.629 clearly have a a greater value, more or and even responsibility exactly over over 77 00:06:00.949 --> 00:06:09.500 the animals. So so God clearly has given a value to human beings. 78 00:06:09.540 --> 00:06:13.220 And and so you know, maybe, Daniel, I know I looked at 79 00:06:13.259 --> 00:06:16.459 this and really I learned a lot as I was kind of studying over. 80 00:06:16.980 --> 00:06:20.730 Well, what does it mean to be made in God's image? But I'd 81 00:06:20.730 --> 00:06:26.970 be curious what what your thoughts are of that. Yeah, well, that 82 00:06:27.569 --> 00:06:30.370 means a lot actually. What does it mean to be made in the image 83 00:06:30.370 --> 00:06:34.720 of God? One of the important factors is the factor of dominion, that 84 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:42.439 God gives dominion, he gives rulership to human beings over the creation in it 85 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:48.189 and it's likened unto God's rulership over the universe right now. Obviously it's is 86 00:06:48.230 --> 00:06:51.750 not exactly the same, but it's a it's a position of thought, of 87 00:06:51.870 --> 00:06:56.430 authority being made in the image of God. It's also the you know, 88 00:06:56.949 --> 00:07:01.019 God is spirit right, and we are also spiritual beings. That's part of 89 00:07:01.100 --> 00:07:04.339 being made in the image of God, that human beings are spiritual creatures, 90 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:10.899 where physical creatures, yes, but we're also spiritual creatures. Were both physical 91 00:07:11.300 --> 00:07:15.810 and spiritual creatures and and so you know, that's part of us being made 92 00:07:15.810 --> 00:07:19.290 in the image of God. Another important part is the eternal nature of human 93 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:24.009 beings. The human beings are eternal, that no matter, you know, 94 00:07:24.970 --> 00:07:27.730 when you die, at some point we will, we're all going to die. 95 00:07:28.290 --> 00:07:33.439 Your your spirit and your soul lives on for eternity, and even also 96 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:38.040 your body after the resurrection of the body, which could be a whole other 97 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:42.360 subject. So you know, some even make the argument that just as God 98 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.949 has try une, father, son and Holy Spirit, that human beings are 99 00:07:46.029 --> 00:07:48.750 try une spirit, soul and body. And now I don't know if I 100 00:07:48.829 --> 00:07:53.110 want to run with that argument. There's some theological discussion about that, whether 101 00:07:53.189 --> 00:07:58.069 people are try une or or or we're just spirit and body. But the 102 00:07:58.149 --> 00:08:01.259 point is is what. We're made in the image of God and it means 103 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:05.980 a couple of different things. You know, creativity is one of those things. 104 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:09.180 Yeah, what? What other creature is creative? Right, right, 105 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:15.250 human beings are creative just by our nature. Like we create things, we 106 00:08:15.730 --> 00:08:18.209 paint, we know, write, we whatever we do, we just we 107 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:24.649 share some of God's attribute, such as exactly. So we're not originators of 108 00:08:24.569 --> 00:08:28.160 things like God, is it in the originator of the creation, but like 109 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:33.200 God, similar to him, we create stuff. We have this creative mind 110 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:35.240 that we so that that's part of what it means to be made in the 111 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:39.440 impage of God. But I think you know just in mind, and you 112 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:41.429 tell me if this is your experience as well. You share with me a 113 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:46.429 friend of yours, or at least an acquaintance, that that you claim to 114 00:08:46.470 --> 00:08:50.309 be a Christian and in claim to be pro choice. At the same time. 115 00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:54.669 Right from my experience from people who claim to be pro choice and and 116 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.100 still a Christian, what I what I get from them? A lot of 117 00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:03.700 times it's sort of a mentality of well, I'm against abortion for me, 118 00:09:05.059 --> 00:09:07.899 like I would never have an abortion, is what they would say exactly. 119 00:09:07.940 --> 00:09:11.049 But I can't force my morality on another person. So that's sort of the 120 00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:13.730 mentality and it's, you know, in one sense it's sort of like, 121 00:09:15.649 --> 00:09:18.409 I guess it's a noble thing, right, because you don't want to be 122 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:22.649 judgmental, you don't want to be pushing your beliefs on another person. And 123 00:09:24.289 --> 00:09:28.960 you know, I get that and to some extent I agree that we aren't 124 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:35.000 to force our beliefs on another person. But that sort of equates trying to 125 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:41.590 persist, persuade someone with what you believe with actually forcing that belief on someone, 126 00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:45.509 and those two are not the same thing, right, like Christianity is 127 00:09:45.909 --> 00:09:50.990 actually directly opposed to forcing our beliefs on people. We actually want to persuade 128 00:09:50.990 --> 00:09:56.539 people to believe because to become a Christian it's not just someone makes you a 129 00:09:56.580 --> 00:09:58.620 Christian, someone waves a magic wand and forces you to be a quick Christian 130 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:01.700 or Dunct, you under some water and you become a Christian. Not to 131 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:05.620 be a question a Christian. Your heart has to be persuaded and turned to 132 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:07.970 the Lord Right, and so that's the very nature of Christian yeah, yeah, 133 00:10:09.210 --> 00:10:16.169 and if you claim Christ then script sure should be your guide and we 134 00:10:16.330 --> 00:10:20.610 as Christians are called to prevent those who are stumbling to the slaughter, to 135 00:10:20.809 --> 00:10:24.039 rescue the week, to speak for those who cannot speak, to go and 136 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:28.799 make disciples. In other words, there is action involved. One of the 137 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.000 one of the things that really, I mean I cringe when I hear it, 138 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.429 is share the Gospel, to Meme, share the Gospel and, if 139 00:10:37.669 --> 00:10:41.070 necessary, use words. Hate that, hate that, because that is so 140 00:10:41.870 --> 00:10:46.870 not biblical. Yeah, I mean the Bible is filled with versus that we 141 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:52.179 are to go and we are to speak. Who will go? Send Me, 142 00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:56.460 not, who will go? Well, I'll be in the background, 143 00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:58.340 you know, praying that you make the right choice. But he we are 144 00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:05.490 to be sent into to take action, and so I think that that's, 145 00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:11.690 for me, one of the most disturbing things about the socalled, well, 146 00:11:11.850 --> 00:11:18.039 a socalled Christian, being so called the pro choice. In that I think 147 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.480 scripture is very clear that when there are weak, vulnerable, mute, those 148 00:11:24.519 --> 00:11:30.360 who cannot protect themselves, we are to go and we are to speak for 149 00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:35.190 them. Yeah, and I think that demolishes the argument. Can I be 150 00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:39.149 a Christian and be pro choice? You can be pro choice in the terms 151 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:43.070 of how God speaks about choice, like can deteronomy, what is it three 152 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.629 thousand and nineteen, where he says, I set before you blessing and curse, 153 00:11:46.789 --> 00:11:50.779 life or death. Therefore, choose life right that you and your offspring 154 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:52.539 may live. You can be pro choice in that way. Yeah, but 155 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:58.740 to say that I'm a Christian and I'm going to ignore God's clear commands regarding 156 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:05.929 the value of human beings first of all, and then disregard his commands about 157 00:12:05.049 --> 00:12:11.370 taking action to defend those innocent human beings that God has created in values, 158 00:12:11.850 --> 00:12:16.919 I don't think you have a biblical stance. Yeah, yeah, no, 159 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:22.840 I'd say you definitely. You, from my perspective, you definitely don't have 160 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.960 a biblical stance. And and you know as a shit earlier before you even 161 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.080 started the podcast, a lot of this is kind of kind of rooted in 162 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:31.629 almost like the selfishness in this this idea that you know, I don't want 163 00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:35.269 to be seeing seen as judgmental right, it's like one of the biggest fears 164 00:12:35.429 --> 00:12:41.590 that American Christians have at least, is appearing to be judgmental in so many 165 00:12:41.830 --> 00:12:46.259 things, not just abortion but in all the sexual revolution and everything. We 166 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:52.460 can't possibly tell someone what maybe is normal or right or good or follows God's 167 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.179 yeah, fear Word on, because we would be seeing is judgment is almost 168 00:12:56.179 --> 00:13:01.850 like again, the biggest fear. This is kind of the this is the 169 00:13:01.889 --> 00:13:05.169 absurdity of it. It's like if you believe someone might say, yeah, 170 00:13:05.210 --> 00:13:09.809 I'm Christian but I'm pro choice. I would never have abortion because for me 171 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:13.120 it's morally wrong, but I could never tell someone that they shouldn't have an 172 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:18.000 abortion. Then you're sort of missing the point. Like why? Why is 173 00:13:18.080 --> 00:13:20.559 it a moral wrong for you to do it? It's a moral wrong for 174 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.080 you to do it, I think, in your mind because you know it's 175 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.870 killing another person. Well, if it's wrong for you to kill another person, 176 00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:31.389 then why is it right for someone else, who may not believe that's 177 00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:33.870 a person, to kill that person? Like their lack of belief in the 178 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:39.110 personhood of that child does not make that act a moral act. It's still 179 00:13:39.190 --> 00:13:43.460 immoral. It's still wrong, it's still sinful. Right again, I think 180 00:13:43.460 --> 00:13:46.299 it's I think it's really that people, that Christians, that might say that 181 00:13:46.340 --> 00:13:50.700 their pro choice and I think we need to I think we need to sort 182 00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:54.100 of separate this a little bit and that there, I believe, are some 183 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.730 that could be ignorant. It's possible. It's hard for me to believe, 184 00:13:58.409 --> 00:14:01.169 but it's possible that people, maybe new believers whatever, just ignorant about the 185 00:14:01.250 --> 00:14:05.610 issue, ignorance spiritually or ignorant in it about what's involved into just ignorant just 186 00:14:05.690 --> 00:14:09.649 in general. Maybe they don't, maybe they do believe the lie that, 187 00:14:09.809 --> 00:14:11.360 you know, it's a Blob of tissue, clump of sales yea, saying 188 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.960 yeah, I think they're yeah. Certainly there needs to be allowance for that. 189 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:18.720 And in the Bible tells us, Actually Paul Right into Timothy Tells Timothy 190 00:14:20.080 --> 00:14:24.950 to be patient, not be combative, be patient and answering those who are 191 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:28.149 in opposition so that God might grant them repentant. So I think there's a 192 00:14:28.230 --> 00:14:31.309 there's a time and place certainly to kind of slow down when someone says they're 193 00:14:31.389 --> 00:14:35.070 Christian and their pro choice. It's kind of slow down, don't be offended 194 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:37.659 saying are you're not, you're a wicked reprobate. You know, we don't 195 00:14:37.659 --> 00:14:41.899 need to take that attitude. There certainly is a time and place where we 196 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:43.740 say, you know what, the Bible's God's word. If you're not following 197 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:46.659 what God's word says, then you can't claim to be a Christian, because 198 00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:50.220 that is the foundation of Christianity. That the word God right. But to 199 00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:52.929 your pointed, there is the verse and I can't remember if it's the verse 200 00:14:54.009 --> 00:14:56.970 you quota. But restore them gently. You are to restore we are called 201 00:14:58.009 --> 00:15:01.210 to restore them if we see a brother in sin, and if that someone's 202 00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:05.330 claiming to be a Christian and claiming that abortion is a valid choice, then 203 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:09.919 they should be restored to a proper understanding. But we are to do it 204 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:11.960 in gentleness. Yeah, yeah, you know the word choice is. It 205 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.000 can be a tricky word, you know. In reality, I was talking 206 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.870 to some folks actually on the sidewalk just just the other day, some young 207 00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:26.029 folks, and I'll saying, you know what truth is, you can choose 208 00:15:26.110 --> 00:15:30.710 to do whatever you want to. You really can. You can choose to 209 00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:33.389 do whatever you want to. You can go and stand on that building over 210 00:15:33.429 --> 00:15:39.460 there and you can choose to just disbelieve in gravity and jump off. The 211 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:45.460 fact is your choice is going to imply some consequences or incurse some consequences. 212 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.899 Right, if you choose to jump off that building, then you're the consequences. 213 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.809 You're going to hit the ground. Right. There's a consequence every choice. 214 00:15:52.889 --> 00:15:56.210 Could could a mother choose to kill her unborn child? Yes, she 215 00:15:56.370 --> 00:16:00.370 could choose to do that. Unfortunately, in this country gets still legal and 216 00:16:00.490 --> 00:16:03.929 she can go into an abortion clinic and pay three hundred and sixty dollars, 217 00:16:03.009 --> 00:16:07.279 like it is here in Charlotte or other places. Whatever. You know, 218 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.279 it's whatever the prize might be. He's going to pay that money to in 219 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.080 the life of a child. She can choose to do that. A mother 220 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:17.039 could choose to do that to her three year old. She can go and 221 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:21.029 slid her three year olds through it. I mean a mother here, not 222 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:23.590 too far from here, in Georgia, apparently birth church old and chose to 223 00:16:23.629 --> 00:16:27.590 put in a plastic bag and throw it in the wood. She could choose 224 00:16:27.629 --> 00:16:32.860 to do that. Right. She did apparently choose to do that. It 225 00:16:33.019 --> 00:16:36.580 was not right. Yeah, just because you're you got to give someone the 226 00:16:36.659 --> 00:16:38.940 ability to do something does not mean he's okay with the choice that they make. 227 00:16:40.379 --> 00:16:42.340 That's really the question. Yeah, the trust. The question is not 228 00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:48.129 a can question really, it's a should question. Yeah, should people take 229 00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:52.090 the lives of their babies? Throw abortion right, and should we as Christians 230 00:16:52.490 --> 00:16:56.009 be okay with right? Do not use your freedom as a license to sin. 231 00:16:56.129 --> 00:16:57.809 Yeah, Paull's clear about that. We Are we are not to do 232 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:03.480 to do that. But, and you know, again this is kind of 233 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:08.759 a separate point, but Jesus specifically says, why do you call me Lord 234 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.640 Lord and not do what I say? Well, one of the commandments is 235 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:19.150 that shall not murder. Yeah, and and so the pro choice folks might 236 00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:22.349 say, well, it's not murder, right, and that is what I 237 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:26.630 hear. Right. I'm sure you hear it too. It's not murdered because 238 00:17:26.750 --> 00:17:30.019 they claim it's not a human being. And then you have tesk. Well, 239 00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:33.500 at what point does script should say, if you're a Christian, when 240 00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:37.579 does God say it's a human being? Well, he says from the moment 241 00:17:37.660 --> 00:17:41.539 of conception. There's plenty of like versus in Psalm, Psalm one hundred and 242 00:17:41.539 --> 00:17:44.849 thirty nine, where it talks about knitting together us together in the womb and 243 00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:48.289 from the moment that that we were knitted together in the womb, he knew 244 00:17:48.329 --> 00:17:52.329 us in the in Jeremiah, he named Jeremiah, is a prophet to the 245 00:17:52.369 --> 00:17:56.170 nation's before one day of his came to be. So there's many verses that 246 00:17:56.329 --> 00:18:02.279 talk about that. They're human from the moment of conception. So when there 247 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.319 is the taking of innocent human life, it is murder. Yeah, that 248 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:10.720 that's what murder is, right. Yeah, and you know so one of 249 00:18:10.759 --> 00:18:14.150 the arguments is in this can kind of be getting off track a little bit, 250 00:18:15.630 --> 00:18:18.950 but that abortion is not technically murder because murder is a legal term and 251 00:18:19.150 --> 00:18:22.670 since the the government in this country at least, says that it's okay. 252 00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:26.339 Right, there is not technically murder. You know, I might, would, 253 00:18:26.539 --> 00:18:29.619 might, would agree. Yeah, I might, would say, you 254 00:18:29.819 --> 00:18:33.299 know what abortion in the United States of America's currently not murder. Should be 255 00:18:34.299 --> 00:18:37.660 in and in the eyes of God, which ultimately ask Christians right, there's 256 00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.849 a higher law. Exactly, exactly. That's our standard. Is what the 257 00:18:41.890 --> 00:18:44.690 Bible says. When God says that I shall not murder, I don't think 258 00:18:44.690 --> 00:18:48.009 he's talking about what whatever. Yeah, the laws, however, the laws 259 00:18:48.130 --> 00:18:52.289 define murder. I define murder as the taking will not meet God. You 260 00:18:52.410 --> 00:18:55.720 definds murderous, the taking of innocent law. Yeah, and you know, 261 00:18:55.960 --> 00:19:00.480 I think a lot of it is possibly ignorant arants. As far as someone 262 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:03.400 who might claim to be a Christian and be pro choice, some of us, 263 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.839 of course, just their false converts. They just really aren't Christians, 264 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:10.910 right. They just, and that's probably the majority of people that would claim 265 00:19:10.910 --> 00:19:15.109 to be pro choice, just simply they're not born of God and they slap 266 00:19:15.190 --> 00:19:18.829 the tag of Christianity on for cultural reasons or maybe because it makes them feel 267 00:19:18.829 --> 00:19:22.069 good on Sunday or whatever it might be. But the fact is, their 268 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:26.460 false converse. But those who maybe are, you know, Christians or at 269 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:30.460 least Christianized in some way, that claim to be pro choice, think probably 270 00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:34.099 have not really thought it out so well, which hopefully, you know us 271 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:37.650 talking about this, hopefully some folks will pick up on this and and really 272 00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:41.170 think these things through. Yeah, well, let me ask you, because 273 00:19:41.210 --> 00:19:45.009 I think part of that is is going back to where we are. Not 274 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:47.769 to judge, I do think that that's that's what I hear a lot. 275 00:19:47.849 --> 00:19:52.690 And Yeah, you're from from my friends, not or acquaintances that that say. 276 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:59.359 You know, I agree that abortion is wrong and and and that I 277 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.240 wouldn't do it, like you said, but I can't judge. I should 278 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.950 not judge. We're told biblically. They say that we are not to judge 279 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:14.390 others. And you being out on the sidewalk and telling these moms you know, 280 00:20:14.549 --> 00:20:19.150 taking the life of your child is wrong. They feel is they call 281 00:20:19.269 --> 00:20:22.819 us not Christian. Yeah, because so Christian be. So I think, 282 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:29.140 I I think that maybe you could talk about well, what are we not 283 00:20:29.299 --> 00:20:32.579 to judge? Do we not do? Are we not supposed to judge? 284 00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:36.609 Because if we are supposed to judge, that seems like something we could maybe 285 00:20:36.690 --> 00:20:40.289 make a judgment about whether it's okay for mom to take their baby's life. 286 00:20:40.529 --> 00:20:45.650 Yeah, I think when people say it's like number, like number one quoted 287 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:48.369 verse. Yeah, we're at an abortion center, right. I agree. 288 00:20:48.130 --> 00:20:53.000 Thou shalt not just people even sometimes quote it in perfect King James English exactly 289 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:56.960 how shalt not judge it. The atheist, the APE is that I'll Sam 290 00:20:57.000 --> 00:21:03.480 an atheist, but the Bible says your bibles was right, the eleventh command 291 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.430 right exactly. But actually that's not found in the Bible. Thou shall not 292 00:21:08.470 --> 00:21:14.750 judge. Is Not in the Bible the principle of judging people. And what's 293 00:21:14.789 --> 00:21:18.349 what Jesus deals with when he says judge not lest you be judge. Right, 294 00:21:18.470 --> 00:21:19.420 he goes on. It doesn't just stop there. Didn Say Right, 295 00:21:19.460 --> 00:21:22.059 does not lest you be judge. There's the context. He says for in 296 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:26.259 the same measure that used to judge will be measured back to you. And 297 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:30.539 then he talks about you know, why do you judge your brother who has 298 00:21:30.579 --> 00:21:33.450 a speck in his eye when you've got a log sticking out of your own 299 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:36.170 or plank sticking out of your own e? Then he goes on to say 300 00:21:36.529 --> 00:21:40.289 first remove the plank from your eye and then you can see clearly to help 301 00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:44.690 your brother remove the speck from his eye. So if looking at the speck 302 00:21:44.769 --> 00:21:48.559 in our brother's eyes judgment and what Jesus is talking about saying don't do, 303 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.039 then why is he say remove the plank first and then you can help your 304 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.160 brother see? The fact is he's talking about hypocritical judgment. He's talking about 305 00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.759 judging people for doing the same stuff that you're doing, which is hypocrisy, 306 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.190 which is evil and which we need to guard our hearts against like if we're 307 00:22:03.230 --> 00:22:07.190 going around pointing the finger at other people for doing stuff that we ourselves are 308 00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:11.789 doing. And you know, he's more than likely talking in particular about the 309 00:22:11.789 --> 00:22:18.059 Pharisees who claim to have this outward religious thing going on and yet really inside, 310 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:19.819 he says, you guys, you're like whitewashed tombs. You look good 311 00:22:19.819 --> 00:22:23.259 on the outside, but inside you're full of dead man's bones. That's hypocrisy. 312 00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:29.059 When it's it's you know, kind of people, through judgments, that 313 00:22:29.180 --> 00:22:33.170 would ever individual or ever lifestyle they can to make themselves really feel and look 314 00:22:33.250 --> 00:22:38.970 better. That's wrong. We shouldn't do that. But to imagine that just 315 00:22:40.210 --> 00:22:45.400 practically as human beings, not just set aside just being Christians. Now, 316 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:48.079 certainly is Christians. We were going to talk about that, but it's human 317 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:52.920 beings. We have to make judgments every day. We make it. What 318 00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:57.079 does a judgment basically, a judgment is an assessment of behavior. Right. 319 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:03.069 It's like I'm looking at a particular behavior and I'm making a judgment of whether 320 00:23:03.069 --> 00:23:07.950 or not that's right or whether it's wrong. And that's normal life. That's 321 00:23:07.990 --> 00:23:11.309 like everyday life. You do it when you're driving down the road. You 322 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:14.700 know, I get behind some Old Lady who's driving with her hands on the 323 00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:15.619 steering with, I make a judgment and I say, you know what, 324 00:23:15.940 --> 00:23:18.740 she's probably going to keep me from getting to my destination in time, so 325 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:22.819 I better go around her. Right. Well, even the pro choice people, 326 00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:25.980 when they say thou shall not judge, are making a judgment. They're 327 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.130 judging that we're just yeah, that's so, it happens all the time. 328 00:23:29.329 --> 00:23:32.289 All of us do it all the time. Yeah, certainly, and we 329 00:23:32.529 --> 00:23:34.089 make judgments about all kinds of stuff. Now, of course, in this 330 00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:37.970 context were talking about moral judgments. We're talking about whether or not something is 331 00:23:38.210 --> 00:23:44.000 right or whether it's wrong, whether it's moral or immoral right. And so 332 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.200 oftentimes, I think when people talk about not judging them, you know, 333 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:52.200 especially people going into an abortion clinic, it's a fig leaf. All in 334 00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.990 all, it is for them, at least from my understanding and from my 335 00:23:56.150 --> 00:23:59.910 experience, is they're trying to throw some of the guilt that they feel back 336 00:24:00.029 --> 00:24:02.509 on you. You know, yes, what I'm doing is wrong, killing 337 00:24:02.549 --> 00:24:04.390 my baby through abortion, but what you're doing just as wrong, because you're 338 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:07.710 judging me for it. And again it's an absurdity right. It doesn't make 339 00:24:07.750 --> 00:24:11.299 sense. It doesn't make sense. And in any other scenario, you know, 340 00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:15.579 you imagine, you know, a mother is about to slit the throat 341 00:24:15.619 --> 00:24:17.819 of for three year old, like I talked about earlier. Could a mother 342 00:24:17.900 --> 00:24:21.299 do that? She could certainly use her volition and do that. She's gonna 343 00:24:21.299 --> 00:24:23.450 stuff for the consequences and that would be immoral. I think everybody would agree 344 00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:27.289 with that. But imagine she's doing that and you come on that scene and 345 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:32.170 you like stop, don't do that, that's that's wrong. What if she 346 00:24:32.289 --> 00:24:34.250 look back at you as she's got the knife to the to the child's throat, 347 00:24:34.289 --> 00:24:38.079 and says you're judging me, stop judging me. Everyone else would see 348 00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:45.240 that as like this person is really completely deceived. They are about to kill 349 00:24:45.279 --> 00:24:48.480 a person and yet they're talking about me judging them. And yet that's what 350 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.910 we see at an abortion class. So we see in conversations with people who 351 00:24:53.309 --> 00:24:57.670 who claim to be Christians and pro choice or whatever, who, when they 352 00:24:57.710 --> 00:25:02.150 talk about judgment right, they really mean don't tell me what I'm doing is 353 00:25:02.269 --> 00:25:04.589 immoral. Right, yeah, and and, but, but we are told 354 00:25:04.829 --> 00:25:10.619 throughout scripture we are to judge correctly, judge righteously remove the log. But 355 00:25:10.779 --> 00:25:14.140 then, so the implication is then, after we move the plank in your 356 00:25:14.140 --> 00:25:17.619 own eye, then then you are able to see clearly to judge. So 357 00:25:17.940 --> 00:25:22.250 where to judge? Angels? Right. So we are called upon as Christians 358 00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:25.730 to judge. And in fact, how can we be light to the world 359 00:25:25.890 --> 00:25:32.410 and salt preserving a culture, which is what salt is, a preservative we 360 00:25:32.609 --> 00:25:36.119 are as Christians, we are the light. We illuminate the darkness, we 361 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:42.039 illuminate sin. Yeah, and we are salved. We preserve the pure righteousness 362 00:25:42.119 --> 00:25:45.440 of God. How can we do that if we're unable to judge what is 363 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:51.349 right or wrong? So God, he he is our righteousness. He is 364 00:25:51.470 --> 00:25:55.470 what gives us the ability to judge, and that's what scripture says. As 365 00:25:55.549 --> 00:26:00.750 the Holy Spirit enters, he teaches us and guides us into all righteousness so 366 00:26:00.869 --> 00:26:04.819 that we are able to judge with righteousness. And I think for a Christian 367 00:26:04.940 --> 00:26:08.220 to not use that gift of God, it's a gift, it's a gift 368 00:26:08.259 --> 00:26:12.980 to be able to go to others and rescue them from stumbling to the slaughter, 369 00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:18.130 I think it is denying again what what we have been called to do. 370 00:26:18.490 --> 00:26:23.930 Yeah, absolutely, scripture says that the righteous man judges all things. 371 00:26:25.369 --> 00:26:30.930 Yeah, the righteous man or woman makes an assessment of certain behaviors and certain 372 00:26:32.009 --> 00:26:36.359 things. Now, you know the judgments that we make if they're motivated by 373 00:26:36.440 --> 00:26:40.079 selfishness, like if I'm making a judgment, a moral assessment about someone else's 374 00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:42.559 behavior and the root of that is to make me feel better about myself, 375 00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:47.000 like that person is really immoral and even though I'm in moral I'm not as 376 00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:48.670 immoral is them. So it makes me feel better. That's that's wrong right. 377 00:26:49.150 --> 00:26:52.789 But if our judgment of something that's immoral is rooted in, you know, 378 00:26:52.910 --> 00:26:56.230 love for God first, because that's where I love is supposed to be 379 00:26:56.269 --> 00:26:57.910 in our affections are supposed to be to God first, but also to our 380 00:26:57.950 --> 00:27:00.779 neighbor, you know, like the issue of homosexuality. You know, I 381 00:27:00.819 --> 00:27:04.259 would I look at that, that behavior and I say that it's immoral, 382 00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:07.980 and I look in God's Word and based on what God says and God's disapproval 383 00:27:07.980 --> 00:27:12.059 of that lifestyle, I can say that's in it's immoral. And when I 384 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:15.849 talk to a homosexual and I say listen, your lifestyle, and you know 385 00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:18.250 I'm not telling them you God hate fags or anything like that. But I'm 386 00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.329 telling them, according to what I see in the word of God, that 387 00:27:22.490 --> 00:27:26.049 lifestyle is unacceptable to God. I'm not doing that to make myself feel better. 388 00:27:26.329 --> 00:27:30.480 I'm not doing that because I want them to feel bad necessarily. I'm 389 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:33.319 doing that because I know that they're headed toward destruction. Yeah, they're headed 390 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:40.480 toward a destructive in that destructive direction, live in a destructive lifestyle. And 391 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:45.269 the same way with a mom going into an abortion clinic or someone who thinks 392 00:27:45.309 --> 00:27:48.430 it's okay to take a baby's life through abortion. We know, based on 393 00:27:48.589 --> 00:27:52.509 scripture, that we're all going to stand before God and give an account for 394 00:27:52.630 --> 00:27:56.549 our lives. And you know, I gave this example actually to to one 395 00:27:56.589 --> 00:28:00.900 of the pro abortion ladies months and months ago when she was talking about you 396 00:28:02.019 --> 00:28:06.579 know, you're you know you had a I think they actually mentioned about you. 397 00:28:06.619 --> 00:28:10.019 You had abortion in your past. And Vicky's out here judging these people 398 00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:12.210 for doing something that she did. And how can she do that? How 399 00:28:12.289 --> 00:28:15.450 can she judge these people for doing something she did? Her abortion was okay 400 00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:18.970 and there's aren't. And of course you've never said you're abortion. Absolutely not. 401 00:28:19.210 --> 00:28:22.730 That's the first premise that's absolutely right. It was far from U but 402 00:28:22.809 --> 00:28:26.730 I gave the example just off the top of my head, the Best I 403 00:28:26.769 --> 00:28:29.160 could come up with. But you know, there's woods right across the street 404 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.680 from from the abortion center there, and I said, what if I went 405 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.519 in those woods and I got bit by by copper head? And I was 406 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:38.079 walking through those woods after I got bit by a copper head and I see 407 00:28:38.079 --> 00:28:41.630 there's ten copper heads and there's a hundred. The whole woods are full of 408 00:28:41.670 --> 00:28:45.150 copper heads and I made it, by the grace of God, out of 409 00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:48.910 those woods and got medical attention and finally got back on my feet and I 410 00:28:48.029 --> 00:28:51.549 came out here and I saw people going into those woods and I yell them 411 00:28:51.589 --> 00:28:53.269 don't go in there. There's copper heads in there. They will kill you 412 00:28:53.509 --> 00:28:56.380 like you will. You will lose your life, you end up in the 413 00:28:56.420 --> 00:29:00.259 hospital like I did. Would that be like immoral for me to do that 414 00:29:00.579 --> 00:29:03.259 or I think that would be one of the most moral things I could do. 415 00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:06.619 That's a great example, and though the least moral thing you could do 416 00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:08.500 is to come out this is a hey, you got you gotta go. 417 00:29:08.619 --> 00:29:11.250 Take me that path. I'm not gonna Change You for going in there. 418 00:29:11.369 --> 00:29:14.930 Yeah, exact. And so we know, based on, you know, 419 00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:19.569 your personal experience, based on conversations with with many people who've had abortions right, 420 00:29:21.089 --> 00:29:23.250 that it's destructive, certainly to the baby, and that's that's sort of 421 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:26.920 you know where we're coming from. Obviously it's destructive to the baby, but 422 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.680 it's also destructive to the mothers that have abortions. That's right. Um, 423 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:37.319 it's destructive to families. They're touched by abortion. We've seen the ravages of 424 00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:42.509 abortion in in in relationships and families, with with grandparents of mothers who've had 425 00:29:42.509 --> 00:29:48.190 abortions and and all the like. It it's ugly tentacles reach into every area 426 00:29:48.349 --> 00:29:52.750 of society. It does. And look at the the the couple that stopped 427 00:29:52.829 --> 00:29:56.660 today, that that stopped to they they had an eight year old in their 428 00:29:56.779 --> 00:30:00.460 car. who had they had come to the trobe where we are on the 429 00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:06.420 sidewalk eight years ago to abort their child. The woman came. I don't 430 00:30:06.460 --> 00:30:10.809 believe that the father the child was with her. She was being told that 431 00:30:11.289 --> 00:30:14.410 she had to do that in order to not to have the rest of her 432 00:30:14.410 --> 00:30:18.529 children removed from her home. So she was being coerced. Clearly illegal clearly 433 00:30:18.690 --> 00:30:23.359 wrong. But the father was not a part of that. And and today 434 00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:30.759 she came to show her children this is what almost happened. These are the 435 00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:36.750 people that showed me and helped me not to do that. And then she 436 00:30:36.950 --> 00:30:41.069 came back again about a half an hour later with the father of a eight 437 00:30:41.069 --> 00:30:45.029 year old, and that father is almost in tears as he's shaking my hand. 438 00:30:45.269 --> 00:30:48.430 I wasn't the one that was here eight years ago, but thanking us, 439 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.740 thanking cities for life and saying that's my baby, that's my baby. 440 00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:57.660 So the you know, the fact that there were people out there that were 441 00:30:59.180 --> 00:31:03.529 judging right from wrong was what preserved that that child's life, but also that 442 00:31:03.849 --> 00:31:11.609 father that he would have been one of the sacrifices, as the casualties. 443 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:15.250 That's what I meant, the casualty of abortion, because she went there, 444 00:31:15.289 --> 00:31:18.400 as far as I know, without without his knowledge. Yeah, he was 445 00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.200 the father that child. So you're exactly right. It it's it's so destructive 446 00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:30.240 and who better really to speak about the destruction from abortion than someone who has 447 00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:33.109 personally experienced and yeah, yeah, so one of the first things my sister 448 00:31:33.150 --> 00:31:40.829 asked me when when I started working with cities for life was, well, 449 00:31:41.470 --> 00:31:44.950 how can you do that? What about your own abortion? Yeah, and 450 00:31:45.029 --> 00:31:49.619 I said that's why I'm doing it, because I know the horror of what 451 00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:55.259 I did and I didn't recognize it at the time, yet I do now. 452 00:31:55.740 --> 00:32:00.529 And I think the greatest act of love that that you can show towards 453 00:32:00.569 --> 00:32:06.609 another human being is if you are able to keep them from a path that 454 00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:13.849 you know is going to result in despair and horror that you direct them. 455 00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:17.119 Yeah, otherwise. Yeah, and of course you know, even that aside, 456 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:22.640 you know it's not true that women aren't affected by abortions. They are 457 00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:28.240 affected by abortions. But even if they weren't, still we're looking at at 458 00:32:28.279 --> 00:32:34.029 an act that actively destroys the life of an innocent person. Yeah, and 459 00:32:34.309 --> 00:32:38.470 as believers in Jesus and people who believe, like where we started, that 460 00:32:38.630 --> 00:32:44.539 human beings are unique in our value. Every creature is valuable, but not 461 00:32:44.660 --> 00:32:46.299 every creature is made in the image of God, and that's not every creature 462 00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:51.299 has the same value. Human beings have a value that's above and beyond it's 463 00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.700 not pride, it's what God's word says, and we're looking at what God 464 00:32:54.859 --> 00:33:00.529 says about human beings and to imagine that it's okay and that we shouldn't make 465 00:33:00.569 --> 00:33:05.450 a judgment about the destruction of innocent human lives. Is, you know again, 466 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:08.569 it's it makes us disagree with God. You know, we disagree with 467 00:33:08.690 --> 00:33:13.599 God, and you know, as a believer, I mean the way that 468 00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:19.079 you come into the faith is by agreeing with God. You don't come into 469 00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:22.680 the faith, you don't become a Christian until you've agreed that God is righteous, 470 00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:28.589 he's holy, and that your sin is wrong and that you need to 471 00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:31.069 be saved. Right, that has to be the way you have to do. 472 00:33:31.109 --> 00:33:34.230 You have to understand you're a center, that you need a savior, 473 00:33:34.269 --> 00:33:37.589 which is agreeing with God's word. So, therefore, everything else that flows 474 00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:42.140 out of our lives as Christians should be in agreement with God. It doesn't 475 00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:45.660 mean like, you know, I've read some passages where, you know, 476 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:49.500 God's really cut me deep. You know, Hebrews Twelve, is it? 477 00:33:49.539 --> 00:33:52.059 Where the God's Word is like a two edged sword? Right, I've been 478 00:33:52.099 --> 00:33:54.099 cut. You've probably been cut by God's words. Like it's not stuff I 479 00:33:54.099 --> 00:33:57.930 disagree with, but stuff I don't particularly like, like I have to love 480 00:33:58.009 --> 00:34:00.890 my enemies, you know, I have to lay my life down. I 481 00:34:00.970 --> 00:34:04.849 have to love my wife as Christ love the church. Yeah, that's not 482 00:34:05.130 --> 00:34:08.050 easy and it's going to be hard for me, but I agree that what 483 00:34:08.130 --> 00:34:12.159 you say is right, God, and I'm going to buy your grace do 484 00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.599 what you've called me to do. So, when we come to places in 485 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:17.320 God's word, and you know, we look at society and it has its 486 00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:22.239 opinions and it has its morality, which is always changing, it always shifting, 487 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:29.909 we cannot take society's morality and just receive it as Christians and say, 488 00:34:30.030 --> 00:34:31.989 well, you know, it's Society's morality, so that's because that's what my 489 00:34:32.110 --> 00:34:36.429 morality is, and disregard the word of God. Once we begin to disregard 490 00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:42.019 the word of God, then we have removed ourselves from the foundation of Christianity 491 00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:45.460 itself. And so to disregard God's word and still claim to be a Christian 492 00:34:46.099 --> 00:34:51.219 is is a contradiction. It's just it's just not not possible. Yeah, 493 00:34:51.219 --> 00:34:53.289 Jesus was the word, I mean the word, the word God. God 494 00:34:53.369 --> 00:34:57.889 used the word to speak all creation into being. So the word is critical 495 00:34:58.010 --> 00:35:04.010 and it's it should be the the go to foundation of absolutely every red. 496 00:35:04.090 --> 00:35:08.559 Yeah, everything that we are, and that applies to whether we believe abortion 497 00:35:08.679 --> 00:35:13.760 is right or wrong and whether we believe that we should take a stand, 498 00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.199 yeah, for or against. I always always return to well, what does 499 00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:21.909 God say? Yeah, I mean I think also, you know, just 500 00:35:22.030 --> 00:35:25.550 kind of wrapping up here, one of the mentalities of people who maybe wouldn't 501 00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:29.429 go as far as even to call themselves pro choice, but they might say 502 00:35:29.590 --> 00:35:32.510 something to the effect of, yeah, I'm pro alive, but I would 503 00:35:32.550 --> 00:35:37.420 never do what you guys do right to an abortion clinic. Yes, I 504 00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:44.579 would never actively oppose abortion or whatever. It's like Jesus said, either you're 505 00:35:44.619 --> 00:35:45.940 for me are you against me. It's like you need to make a decision 506 00:35:46.340 --> 00:35:49.619 now. Don't mean by that that you're not a Christian if you don't come 507 00:35:49.619 --> 00:35:51.730 out to an abortion clinic anything like that. It's not what I mean to 508 00:35:51.769 --> 00:35:54.210 say. But what I do mean to say is that if there is something 509 00:35:54.329 --> 00:36:00.769 that is a moral evil that exists in your society, to not be actively 510 00:36:00.809 --> 00:36:06.880 involved in some way in opposing that moral evil is, in one sense a 511 00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.760 denial of what God has called us to do. He has called us to 512 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:17.710 actively oppose evil. or It's a testit approval of that e could and it's 513 00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:22.190 by our silence, we are what we are saying. Someone. What's the 514 00:36:22.389 --> 00:36:25.150 is it Edmond Burke quote? That all it takes for evil to triumphans for 515 00:36:25.230 --> 00:36:30.349 good men to do nothing. And Yeah, you know apathy, apathy actually 516 00:36:30.389 --> 00:36:34.539 speaks, a speaks volumes. If that's what you what you fail to do, 517 00:36:34.659 --> 00:36:37.179 when you refuse to do is a matter of fact. I believe we 518 00:36:37.300 --> 00:36:40.260 stand before God, that you will give an account for not just the stuff 519 00:36:40.300 --> 00:36:44.219 that we actively did, that was wrong, yeah, but for the stuff 520 00:36:44.219 --> 00:36:47.050 that we passively refused and failed to do. Why did you not? Jesus 521 00:36:47.090 --> 00:36:51.369 says that. Why, where were you when I was in prison? Where 522 00:36:51.409 --> 00:36:53.130 were you when I was hungry? Where were you when I was thirsty? 523 00:36:53.289 --> 00:36:57.449 Well, we should have been there. We should be there in those babies 524 00:36:57.530 --> 00:37:00.599 are there in prison, yeah, and those MOMS are. Yeah, there, 525 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:04.079 they're third prison. Of the MOMS are in the prison. Of See. 526 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:07.159 I mean it speaks of you know that passage Matthew Twenty five. It 527 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:13.760 speaks of sort of this this rejection, in these these Jesus identifies with those 528 00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:15.789 who are rejected by society, those who are sick, those are in prison, 529 00:37:15.869 --> 00:37:20.150 those who kind of the untouchable sort of people yeah, it's sort of 530 00:37:20.150 --> 00:37:24.869 the measure of the genuineness of our Christianity is what we do with those real 531 00:37:24.909 --> 00:37:28.630 the least of these, how we act what those were the least of these. 532 00:37:28.989 --> 00:37:31.659 It's like, if your Christianity is real, then it will be on 533 00:37:31.900 --> 00:37:36.980 display and how you act toward those who are the least of these. M 534 00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:44.929 and in our society, I can't see a group of people more identified with 535 00:37:45.050 --> 00:37:47.050 Jesus and that passage as far as the least of these, where he identifies 536 00:37:47.130 --> 00:37:52.610 himself with them, then the unborn. That's right, they are the least 537 00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:57.010 of the least of these. Yeah, they're the smallest, most vulnerable and 538 00:37:57.130 --> 00:38:01.440 most endangered group of human beings right now. Yeah, on earth and in 539 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:06.800 a place that was designed perfectly by God to be a place of protection and 540 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.039 instead is one of the most dangerous places on earth, which is the human 541 00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:14.949 womb. Yeah, so for us to be silent on that, I think 542 00:38:15.070 --> 00:38:21.989 is is is is not being who God has has called us to. Yeah. 543 00:38:22.030 --> 00:38:24.550 Absolutely. So, just to wrap up here, you know, I 544 00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:29.539 think, man, I think we think we've solved this, this dilemma. 545 00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:31.699 I think we've answered this question. I've got one more Kay. When you 546 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:35.260 are you on more thing, one more thing for you to talk about, 547 00:38:35.260 --> 00:38:38.900 because I do hear it a lot. Okay, that well, but those 548 00:38:39.099 --> 00:38:43.809 babies he's are the Christian speaking, those babies are going to go to heaven 549 00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:49.769 anyway. And look at what you're doing to those women. We should be 550 00:38:49.929 --> 00:38:55.199 winning them over with just, you know, kindness, love, affirmation, 551 00:38:55.280 --> 00:39:00.840 yeah, encouragement. Those babies are okay, the babies are going to be 552 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:05.159 with Jesus. Yeah, so respond to that. Yeah, I mean easy 553 00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:09.070 kind of you know, quick response would be. You know, that kid 554 00:39:09.150 --> 00:39:14.829 over there's drowning in us in a swimming pool, and you know that kids 555 00:39:14.869 --> 00:39:16.989 three years years old and they're going to go to heaven anyway. MMM. 556 00:39:17.750 --> 00:39:22.789 So really don't want to, you know, involve myself and breaking the law 557 00:39:22.869 --> 00:39:25.059 and trispassing on these people's property. You know, after all, they might 558 00:39:25.099 --> 00:39:30.619 not like me going on there, you know, and their backlong to rescue 559 00:39:30.659 --> 00:39:34.059 that kid. You know, it's absurdity, but it's sort of like again, 560 00:39:34.099 --> 00:39:37.179 it's sort of misses the point. Like the point is not just that 561 00:39:37.300 --> 00:39:42.650 women are making a bad decision. It's not just that they're making a bad 562 00:39:42.730 --> 00:39:47.530 medical decision. They're killing another person, right and it's a it's a violent 563 00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:51.730 act. You know, we're talking about another person that suffers. Just because 564 00:39:51.849 --> 00:39:57.079 that person in their suffering, ultimately will end and they'll go to heaven doesn't 565 00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:00.360 mean it's it's okay for us to turn a blind eye to their suffering, 566 00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:05.599 like we have to meet people in their suffering. You know, we could 567 00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:08.389 say that for our brothers and sisters around the world who are suffering persecution who, 568 00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:12.429 you know, in some Islamic countries and some, you know, Communist 569 00:40:12.469 --> 00:40:15.789 countries and other countries, are being persecuted in their heads are being chopped off 570 00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:19.150 and there being tortured. They going to get to heaven, you know, 571 00:40:19.190 --> 00:40:21.820 they're going to get to heaven anyway. So really, I mean, why 572 00:40:21.820 --> 00:40:23.539 do we need to send money? Why do we need to to send aid 573 00:40:23.659 --> 00:40:29.139 and that sort of thing? It's sort of misses the point, right yeah, 574 00:40:29.260 --> 00:40:31.780 it's almost an excuse for inaction. It is. It's an excuse for 575 00:40:32.099 --> 00:40:36.849 for apathy on we have of Christians now, of course, you know, 576 00:40:36.889 --> 00:40:38.889 I don't mean to say and I'm sure you don't mean to say that, 577 00:40:39.329 --> 00:40:45.489 you know, abortion clinic ministry or Pro Life Ministry or Pro Life Activism is 578 00:40:45.769 --> 00:40:49.210 is the only ministry that we're called to. Certainly there are people who are 579 00:40:49.210 --> 00:40:52.960 going over overseas and sharing the Gospel. There are people who are involved actively 580 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:57.840 and evangelism that are not going to abortion clinics. Are Pastors that are doing 581 00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.559 what they can in the pulpit to pastor there the congregation, that kind of 582 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:04.829 stuff them. Not Everybody can can do what we do, and I don't 583 00:41:04.829 --> 00:41:08.230 expect for everyone to do what we do, but everyone can and everyone should 584 00:41:08.230 --> 00:41:15.829 speak out against the immorality that abortion is. If we claim to be Christians 585 00:41:15.150 --> 00:41:19.860 and if we claim to have a foundation of our beliefs from God's word. 586 00:41:20.380 --> 00:41:24.659 The God's Word is very clear that to take an innocent life is wrong and 587 00:41:24.820 --> 00:41:30.340 abortion is taking an innocent life and as a society, for for us as 588 00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:35.530 a society to put our stamp of approval on that will incur the judgment of 589 00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:37.130 God on us as a society. And so those who are supposed to be 590 00:41:37.170 --> 00:41:43.650 salt and light in society are supposed to, as much as we can, 591 00:41:43.809 --> 00:41:46.159 defer the judgment of God from our nation and seek the good of our nation 592 00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:52.599 by actively being involved in uprooting evil. And abortion is one of the first 593 00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.880 evils in our society, I believe. Yeah, absolutely so. So I 594 00:41:58.119 --> 00:42:02.429 think again that we've answered this question that you cannot be Christian and pro choice 595 00:42:02.429 --> 00:42:06.429 at the same time. Yeah, not, unless you're twisting scripture. Yeah, 596 00:42:06.949 --> 00:42:09.389 or we have a grave misunderstanding of yeah. Now, I think at 597 00:42:09.429 --> 00:42:13.510 some point this is this is for a different podcast. Maybe this is sort 598 00:42:13.550 --> 00:42:15.820 of like just a motivation for people who are watching, the people who are 599 00:42:15.860 --> 00:42:20.539 listening, to keep listening. We hope that they will. But I'd like 600 00:42:20.659 --> 00:42:22.260 to deal with you know, because one of the arguments that I've had from 601 00:42:22.300 --> 00:42:29.780 from pro choice people is that the Bible has within its pages a God putting 602 00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:32.369 a stamp of approval on abortion. And the numbers passage. Yes, yeah, 603 00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:36.530 it believe it's numbers Chapter Eight, yeah, where it's almost like a 604 00:42:36.610 --> 00:42:38.929 God prescribed abortion. You know, I want us to talk about that. 605 00:42:39.130 --> 00:42:43.530 Yeah, at some point. I think it's not not what I have enough 606 00:42:43.570 --> 00:42:45.639 time to really talk about that on this particular podcast. Will deal with that 607 00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:50.639 and I actually had reached out to, you know, to Dr Michael Brown, 608 00:42:50.679 --> 00:42:52.719 who's a Hebrew scholar, and just ask him about this passage. Now, 609 00:42:53.239 --> 00:42:59.070 depending on what version you read, it reads differently. But but we'll 610 00:42:59.070 --> 00:43:01.469 talk about that? Okay, future. Yeah, that's some Christians might struggle 611 00:43:01.510 --> 00:43:05.670 with that and be like, what about this passage? And there's a there's 612 00:43:05.670 --> 00:43:09.469 another passage in exodus that sort of can, depending on the way it's translated, 613 00:43:10.309 --> 00:43:15.780 can maybe put a stamp of approval on hurting an unborn child and taking 614 00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:19.300 an unborn child's life. So we'll talk about that. But as far as 615 00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:23.980 this is concerned, you know, it's really impossible to be a Christian and 616 00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:28.409 hold to a pro choice stands and I think again, you can be ignorant 617 00:43:28.489 --> 00:43:32.329 of all the facts and really be ignorant and maybe just coming into the faith 618 00:43:32.409 --> 00:43:37.210 or whatever and not fully informed of this stuff. And certainly, you know, 619 00:43:37.289 --> 00:43:42.159 it's our place to do things like this and answer that question as best 620 00:43:42.199 --> 00:43:45.159 we can from the word of God, and then we have opportunities talk to 621 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:49.679 people one on one to just show them what God's word says about the unborn. 622 00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.239 Aren't about our our need to protect them. Yeah, so we appreciate 623 00:43:52.320 --> 00:43:55.110 all those who are watching and listening. Hope that you're blessed by this. 624 00:43:57.230 --> 00:44:00.309 You can go to our website at Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org. 625 00:44:00.389 --> 00:44:05.030 Can get connected with cities for life here in Charlotte. Also have a website 626 00:44:05.110 --> 00:44:07.869 that's set up for people nationally who want to get involved in sidewalk counseling in 627 00:44:07.909 --> 00:44:15.340 their city, called sidewalks for lifecom. Sidewalks the number for lifecom, and 628 00:44:15.980 --> 00:44:19.699 we're also on facebook. Sidewalks for life is on facebook and cities for life 629 00:44:19.780 --> 00:44:23.449 is on facebook and we hope that you're blessed by this podcast and you can 630 00:44:23.489 --> 00:44:28.250 certainly reach out to us through email or again through facebook. But we appreciate 631 00:44:28.329 --> 00:44:40.239 all those who listen and who watch. God bless for love. Give me 632 00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:53.230 our loft for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's 633 00:44:53.389 --> 00:44:57.030 too precious. And some met you