Abortion and Sex Trafficking - Interview with Justice Ministries Founder Mark Blackwell

0:00 And I am yours, I am yours, I am yours, s and me, Lord. I welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. In this episode we're going to talk with Mark Blackwell from justice ministries about how abortion and sex trafficking go hand in hand and how we can help women in those situations. Stay tuned. Send Me Lord. I felt show passish touch your home use. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcasts. Appreciate you guys listening. As we promised a couple of weeks ago, we're going to do this episode and really focus on the issue of sex trafficking and abortion and how those issues collide, and we have a special guest here with us, Mark Black well with justice ministries. He's going to introduce himself and just a minute.

0:52 But, Vicky, this was a something we just kind of as we were talking about the domestic violence when we did that episode a couple of weeks ago. This is another one of those issues that we really felt like people need to be informed about how these issues, how domestic abused, domestic violence and abortion kind of collide, and then how sex trafficking collides with the issueable because we've seen it out there where we have had strong suspicions that there has been sex trafficked women being brought and we never really know quite what to do and we have done things like call the national hotline, but without a whole lot of success. So we thought it was time to call in an x heard and really find out what we can do, what to look for and how we should respond as sidewalk counselors. Yeah, so, guys, those who are out in front of abortion centers and you trying to reach out and bring help and hope to the women going in, you'll see some of these situations. Maybe some of the stuff that that mark says look out for you'll recognize all. I've seen that in the past and I just didn't know.

1:51 And so this is just a help equip you guys, in form you guys, and so mark, just just go ahead and introduce yourself. Man. What's your title? What's the ministry all about? And then we'll get into some of the some of the INS and out. Sure thing we'll first off, just thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here and it's great to have discussion with you all and I feel this is a very similar fight, a matter of fact, I often say that, you know us being a counter sex trafficking agency, that it's really just an extension of the pro life movement. Yes, that's what we're about and you know, we're often times, you know, fighting for these individuals that are at high risk of death themselves with what they're trapped in. And so I just appreciate all that you do so much. I we've partnered with you personally and on many efforts and and just again happy to be here and thanks for having me.

2:38 Yeah, but yeah, so I'm mark black well, I'm the president and founder of justice ministries and we've been around for a little over ten years. For me, basically, the issue of sex trafficking came on my radar my last semester in college. I was at a conference in Atlanta, Georgia, many of you know, called The Passion Conference. Okay, yeah, and that's where I learned about the issue of sex trafficking, world blight and what was going on and and God just broke my heart for the issue and I felt God was saying to serve this population of people. I didn't know what that would look like. I didn't know that would mean starting an agency or anything like that. But I just felt this call to serve this population. Yeah, and after doing kind of my homework and research of what was going on overseas, but also stateside, and I found that wow, there's, you know, young women and even teenage girls being raped and sold for profit on the streets of Charlotte. You know, as a man, as a Christian, even as a Charlotte, and you know, I couldn't sit on that information and I felt this called start my own backyard. Yeah, and so, yeah, so God just kind of prompted us in that we were the first kind of trafficking agency in the Charlotte region and one of the only few in the state at the time. You know, ten years ago the term human trafficking was starting to get some amentium people were labeling what was going on in this modern day slavery and starting to get a sense of what was happening, but it was still very, very new, you know.

3:57 So there was a lot of kind of pioneering effort to be done here. But again, after seeing the need, God just called us to serve this group. And you know, our models basically based off the story of the Good Samaritan. Yeah, there's no secret salce to what we do. We're just meeting people and their time of need and their tongue of vulnerability and as the you know, as the church, you know, try trying to help meet those needs. whichers are very basic. You know that. It's safe shelter, it's transportation them out of the ditch and getting them to an end. Absolutely and obviously the complexities, you know, with the particular subject of sex trafficking. By the end of the day, these are just people that need help, but like all of us, so we try to provide whatever resources we can and essentially help them on their journey to independence and and that's that's really the name of the game. Yeah, so let me ask so just I'm sure guys, you, you who are listening, you've heard the term sex trafficking and and maybe even lately it seems like there's been an uptick in this people's attention towards sex trafficking and and there's maybe different terms or in things that are associated with that, but just define our term, root with sex traffick, what it was that mean? You talked about modern day slave grades. Just que people into what exactly we're talking about. So so, on a bigger scale. There's there's human trafficking. I mean that that's how you would define this crime. Yeah, and that involves Labor trafficking, that involves sex trafficking. That can involve things like organ harvesting. Yeah, child soldiers, you know, any really any with with the Labor side, all

5:30 kinds of force labor, from a gray and warehousing to live in, maids and, you know, housekeepers and that kind of thing. Right, and sometimes those intersect into sex trafficking as well. Just because someone's being labor traffick they may be exploited sexually as well. Yeah, so there's it's not a super clean, you know thing to say, Oh, that's definitely this case or definitely that case. But where we target most of our effort is in the topic of sex trafficking. Yeah, and and again based here in the US. With that said, we've served we serve predominantly a adult females, yeah, but we have served minors and girls, also boys, some men and those that identify with the Lgbtq community, just all the above. And we've also taken on some labor trafficking cases as well when they've come across our desk. Yeah, but our main focus is sexual exploitation and sex trafficking is where we kind of spend most of our time. Out The way you define sex trafficking in the US by law, it's where there's a basically a commercial sex act done by force, fraud or Corsion, or in which the individual is under eighteen years old. Yeah. So. So, with that said, do you hear about a sixteen year old prostitute? Legally not possible, right. Yeah, a child doesn't have the right to consent into this lifestyle.

6:42 Right. So if they're under eighteen, it's automatic trafficking. Yeah, and if they're over eighteen, if they're an adult, then you you have to prove force, frauder corsion happened that push them into this commercial sex industry, which can be what we see is traditional prostitution. It can be exotic dancing, it can be camming, it can be pornography, it can be even in like the sugar daddy sugar baby context. There is a range. Most of what we're doing with is what we would think of is force prostitution. Yeah, yeah, okay, and I've heard and tell me if I'm wrong about this, but we're right now we're in Charlotte, North Carolina. Now people are listening from all over the United States and people listen from all over the world to this podcast. Sure, but just talking about Charlotte and just the context here. What are this is ex I've heard it's Charlotte's like number for the nation for sex chaffing. Is that correct or is that in Korect? The numbers are interesting. What do we get our numbers and stats?

7:33 Will we get it from data and and data is a little bit all over the place with this topic of sex trafficking in the US. So I leaned towards more conservative. But I'll put it this way. North Carolina, by the stats through the National Resource Center, is a top ten state. Yeah, and Charlotte is the number one location in North Carolina. Yeah, so you could argue then that Charlotte is a top ten city. Yeah, in the US that you can make that, that argument. It is there's something about Charlotte in particular that would cause it to be or can you identify what? What makes something a top city? Absolutely, you know. I mean obviously the the east coast and generals more densely populated and you have between Miami and New York, Charlotte's kind of a midway point. Yeah, we're also a midway point between Atlanta and DC. Yeah, we have a major international airport and we're not far from I forty. We're right here at eighty five or right here at I seventy seven, and you can get anywhere in the country from Charlotte pretty quickly. Yeah, we host a lot of major events. Within the past decade we've hosted both the RNC and the DNC.

8:33 We have all the major sports teams, we have NASCAR, we have we host all kind of large events and anytime there's large populations of people being brought to a community, traffickers see that as potential business. Yeah, so it's not. It's not that there's something wrong with Charlotte in general that like, Oh, Charlotte is just has this high risk. It's that, like any large metropolitan area, we're hosting large events and we're easy to travel to and exit from and when you have that, that's just that sets up the ingredients to be a high risk location for sex trafficking. You know, Charlotte is also one of the abortion capitals or a southeast particularly where we minister at latrobe. Sure is that is there a link there between so many people coming really from all over the southeast for abortions here in Charlotte and the incidence of sex trafficking? Yeah, I think so. I mean I think those those two issues go hand in hand. You know, sex is something that its main function is to produce children. You know, I feel like in our culture it's sad that I think we almost need to find that from it is like people have sexual relations to procreate, like that is the deal. But it's become so perverted and twisted and brought into other categories and the idea of having one partner for your life is just this foreign concept, like we were so far away from like the biblical direction on how to raise a family and how to do this. So yeah, absolutely. You know, if someone is in sex trafficking and they're being a sexually exploited multiple times a day, even if they're on pills or using any kind of protection, still the chance of pregnancy is high and if they're seen as a product that needs to produce,

10:09 the trafficker doesn't want to take nine months off, so he's going to most likely have her terminate that child. There's another version of this that we've seen. That's even in kind of the if you can have a further underbelly to to sex trafficking, where where that's not happening, sometimes the child is brought to term and used as either leverage for the victim or that child then sold into some type of human trafficking as well. So it mean it's a terrible, terrible situation, but certainly, yeah, that the two do go hand in hand. Yes, so, no, sounds abortion is helping the sex trafficker to cover over, Oh yeah, cover his his crimes. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's that is correct. Yeah, I mean we're dealing with a society, like you said, sex is just this recreational thing and obviously we know that God created sex as an enjoyable thing. Sure, right, absolutely, yeah. But then we take that, as you said, and pervert that and make that that it's only about enjoyment, not about procreation.

11:07 And you've got it's crazy. We're talking about an industry. Yes, I mean from our perspective it's crazy. We're talking about an industry, the abortion industry, that makes, you know, million billions of dollars every year off of this thing called abortion. But I mean you're dealing with an industry, the sex trafficking industry, multibillion dollar. Yeah, that's one of the places when to get at this is a multi billion dollar industry. If the level of money that is involved with this. I mean even ten years ago when we started, I remember one of the the phrases people would use would say, if Nike, Google, starbucks and Walmart can bind their profits set global sex trafficking still bringing in more money. Yeah, and those companies combined. And so so you're dealing with a megacrime industry. Yeah, and the unfortunately, when you have big money, it greases a lot of wheels, even all the way throughout government and and yeah, and the systems that should be stopping that and keeping that from happening. Well, if you have high places of power and limited morals and there's money floating around, that is a bad combination. Yeah, it is a bad combination. You unleash, just open the floodgates for all kinds of evil. Absolutely. I know on social media and other rounds there's a lot of this talk about child trafficking and just it seems like it's on an uptick. Is that? Is that the case that there is an uptick in sect traffing. You're just more people are talking about it. I don't know, a couple of stings. The the awareness has increased. Okay, child trafficking has been going on since well before we started and well beyond that. I mean, yeah, it's been going on

12:39 for very, very long time. It is gaining traction and child trafficking specifically is getting more attention. There's some restructuring going on the federal law enforcement levels that I think is is having a ripple effect that there is being beneficial. Okay, free up more manpower to to go after this subject. In general. Law enforcement agencies are tax then and spread then. Right. Yeah, there is some reprioritizing that's been going on that I think is going alongside with with some of the increase that we're seeing. And you know, even with the trump administration, of just recently they passed thirty five million dollars to go into actual victim resources. There's been a lot of money raced in the name of human trafficking, but it would shock you how little of that actually ends up being direct services or bed space. Yeah, for survive of it.

13:28 So the money that just came through, I mean we didn't see any of it. There was only one agency in North Carolina and one in South Carolina that received, you know, that funding, which is which is great. I mean it's excellent, sure, and that will go fast, unfortunately. Yeah, but I was still just encouraged to see that momentum that, hey, even at the federal level, some some money is being loosened up to specifically target getting resources for for individuals that have been caught up in human traffion, because it should be a top priority. I mean the fact that it's going on. We were talking before the podcast, you know. I mean slavery was abolished a long time ago in our country. This is a form of modern day slavery and we should be coming at it really hard and really swift. But for too long we've we've basically just been kind of dancing around the issue and sometimes I feel that we're more concerned about the risk of acting versus the risk of not acting. Yeah, and it really that's been something that's bug me for a long time. But it's a true pandemic. I mean we have a serious problem going on right now. Yeah, and so we know it's there, we know it's happening and we know that it's certainly these women are being brought to the abortion center. We know that and in fact we have seen what we have suspected sometimes. But maybe could you speak a little bit about what to look for, because I know you probably would notice things that we might not. Yeah, I mean I can tell you know, at least you guys are. You are pretty sharp. So I yeah, I'd probably pick up a most of it. But and if you want to check it out, the National Resource Center, also called Pilarish Project, on their website they do have a list of recognizing the signs. If

14:58 you can probably some fifty, fifty things to look for. You will put a link for that actually in the description of this podcast. Sure, those who are listening can can go to that website, but some of the big ones would be, you know, and again it's you know, most women that are being brought to an abortion clinic. I mean they there's a lot of shame, there's a lot of emotion going on, so that could be confused to look like something that it's not necessarily. Yeah, so I would then zoom out a little bit and say, okay, anytime there's maybe a male bringing a female in that they don't look like they'd be in a typical relationship. You know, that should be somewhat of red flag. Like a much older man with a much younger exact person might be one example exactly.

15:41 You can kind of in your own you know, assessment going on that yeah, it looks that's got right. And then, certainly, as we discussed, you know, if if there was multiple women, yeah, that one guy or one individual was bringing in and we could be a woman to I mean there are female traffickers. It could be a woman bringing three other women in and that that's just bizarre. I mean it's it'd be a crazy scene. The individual, the victim, oftentimes doesn't really have control over their own documentation, over their own money. Sometimes they're a little fuzzy on where they're at and you know where they're going. And if sometimes you have opportunity to kind of engage in a conversation level, often times you don't, but if there is that opportunity, you can pick up on that really quickly. Just the victim often times won't have a lot of context that you'd have with a regular Orson you're meeting on the street. Let me ask you, because it occurred to me as you were speaking because we're in in the instant. I was telling you earlier on that that we did see before we started the podcast, where we did see a man bring for victims, well, what we thought were for victims. They it was the middle of summer and they were all wearing long sleeves and we found that odd and we wondered. We were wondering where they being, where they drugged, where they using drugs? Is that a form of control in in sex trafficking, and so would even something like that, long sleeves in the middle of a hot North Carolina summer?

17:00 Yeah, that's that's good observation. Yeah, absolutely, drug use is definitely common within sex trafficking. At that's not every case. I've been actually shocked by how many cases that there wasn't drug use involved. Oftentimes, depending on this type of trafficker, it can be utilized or not, and then sometimes it's something they use count towards the end, if you will, to keep someone compliant. But but yeah, know that the long sleeves could have been used to cover that. There also could have been significant tattoos or branding that have been easily identifiable and then that could be used to cover that as well. But yeah, I the big things to look out for with potential victim is kind of their demeanor, how they're carrying themselves. Again, walking into abortion clinic gets tough because they're probably already feeling all kind of emotion. But that on the street. That's what we would look for is is the way they're carrying themselves, that they won't make eye contact, if they won't speak on their own behalf and someone speaks for them, things of that nature, and then not having a lot of context on you know, where they're from or what they do or how they get here, how long they stay in you know, things the best of US could answer easily. Right, if you're being controlled by another person, you may not have quick answers or you're giving scripted answers. Right. Sometimes we're just watching them and we're not going to have an interaction. But are there things that we could be watching coming from the trafficer? That his interaction. I'm assuming to say him. I know certimes it might be a woman, but I'll say him just to make it easy. So his interactions with the women. Are there things that are kind of tipoffs? Yeah, I mean just that that presence of control.

18:30 I mean is the big one. I mean, traffickers will confuse you, that they will. I mean they're they're they're manipulators. So I mean then one sense they may try to be loving on them and, you know, all caring and another minute really really harsh. It's all over the place, but in general you're looking for overall theme of this person seems to be controlling this other person and there seems to be a real in submissive situation or a fear of that that person. Yeah, so I don't ask this question to kind of get into like a cultural profiling or anything like that, but is it the case that many of the women that are being trafficked are from out of the country? You know, that's so they might not exactly speak English, they might have an accent. Is that another thing that can kind of be a common denominator there that we could pick up on? Let's say we see some of those signs that you're talking about, included with the fact that this person didn't even speak the language. Absolutely not. If someone didn't speak English that you know, and they're again still it appears that they're being controlled.

19:27 This isn't a person that's caring for them and translating and being kind. They're being harsh. That would be a big red flag. For our experience, it's actually really surprised me. The high majority of our clients have actually been US citizens. It is blown my mind. When we got into this I assumed it probably be fifty, you know, fifty percent US citizen, fifty percent for national. The high majority has actually been US citizens. Wow, and and a lot of the trafficking has been. There's different kinds of pimp. There's kind of the Romeo Pimp, which is a small time operator, basically acting like he's in a relationship. It looks similar domestic violence but martialized, and there's the guerrilla pimp, which is heavily violent and and things like that, and then there's kind of the CEO pimp, which may be the one that you know is kind of presenting a fake business and that's how he goes after people and he has them convinced their own track for some kind of career, you know. And so there's there's a variety of more styles of it, but what we see very often is kind of what we called the Romeo Pimp, and that's where, at least initially, the young lady felt like she was in a relationship with this person. Yea. And Yeah, she's having to go through some some crazy things, but she's in her mind justified that it's going to the end result, it's going to be there, eventually going to be together. Yea, this is just part of them getting the money they need to move on with life and things like that.

20:45 I've heard that story time and time again. Yeah, where it was more comparable to what the young lady saw is like a relationship, until one day she just kind of saw that enough is enough, or the abuse got so bad she had true concern for her life that I may not survive the week. And then another big indicator why people call the hot line is they got pregnant and they they maybe will endure this for themselves because after all the trauma and abuse, they don't. They don't always. They get kind of paralyzed, they don't know what to do. Yeah, but then once, once they find out they're pregnant, there that innate maternal instinct is enough to say I can't have this for my child. I got to get out of here. And so we've gotten many a calls when it's not just hey, come get me it's hey, come get me. Also, I'm pregnant and I need help quick right, right. That's very common. I have so many questions for you. I I know of and I can't give the specifics on this, but I do know of definitely a sex trafficking whole thing going on, sure, but the woman is terrified, terrified for her life. She in the end decided not to pursue it. At first she was going to pursue it, then decided not to. So I know things that are just so revolting and and so awful and I am not allowed for fear of harming her. What do we do and how do we report what we see, especially if they're and maybe you could address that also, if the victim is not willing to report? It's a tough one. I mean that is one of our biggest struggles. Again, you know, to be really clear,

22:15 we're a victim advocate organization. We're not we're not an investigative agency. You know, we partner with law enforcement, but we leave their job to be their job. In our job is our job. We collaborate with them wherever possible, but one of the biggest issues law enforcement runs into, and I think when that we run into as well is when the victim wants help but isn't ready for help, right, and that's a thin line, right. Yeah, you have some people that we could say you need help, but they don't think they need it and they're very tough to assist because they think it's fine or they haven't hit rock bottom for them yet, or or whatever it is. But the person that legitimately wants help, they would legitimately one out. But the fear of the unknown is somehow more terrifying than the trauma that they're living in right now. Yeah, and and the fear that they're going to be killed. Exactly. Yeah, the fear of that or the fear that if I try to run, then my perpetrator wilcome after me and then he really will kill me. Right now he's just beating me, but if I, if I try to escape them unsuccessful, then the fear of, you know, potentially being killed is a big one. And then there's other manipulation tactics like well, if you run away, I'll go after you, know, your loved ones, you know, it's like that. That's pretty common. But yes, for for us that that is a big challenge and really what we need is when the victim is ready for help, whether through a law enforcement referral or they call us directly or another NGO like yourselves as connected and they said you're calling on behalf and you know you're in communications.

23:37 You're saying, I want to help, I'm ready to get out. Well, we kind of need that invitation so we can provide services and help them, help them get out. If the person's not ready, then we can't force them into it. and You you're probably running into the same thing and I think the main thing to do there is just have that consistent outreach and just let them know help is here when you're ready and then if there are opportunities for conversation, which there rarely is. I mean it's not like we can go get in a coffee shop and talk about your exit plan. All this is being done in the margin. I mean this is being done in thin spaces of like hey, I had this moment to connect or I had this moment to send you this message or communicate this through a third party, helping get word that like help is available. But then if there's a lot of nerves, that can be a tough thing to navigate. So I think the main thing we can do is obviously just be available, be consistent and pray for them that they would they would attempt to exit. Yeah, on the second note, you know, I would highly encourage people, as with law enforcement, when you see an active crime going on, are you say hey, this looks like trafficking. I definitely think this is, and it's happening in real time and there's actionable things that can be done. One hundred percent, you know, call enforcement right then and there and say, Hey, I have reason to believe this is happening. The big challenge is there. Is it so rare that you you run into a live, real situation where you could report it and it could be acted on in that window, because police need that burden to proof. Yeah, the and then the other challenge will run into, even if all that happens, is again, if the victim isn't ready for help. Yeah, they're going to be more

25:07 scared of their perpetrator than they are the law enforcement and they may feed law enforcement a bunch of lines and and then basically they'd have to be well, you're free to go, I guess. Yeah, everything in a way. It is highly complicated, right, and trying to engage well, in this specific situation. It I guess they could say it was here, say it was what she told me right month, but it was so horrific and she would not report it and I wondered, what's there any way I could anonymously reported and how while protecting her? And I didn't know what to do. So I did nothing. Well, and and those situations, you know, if there was a way to get if you had another engagement with her, like when we do outreach weet we hand out our local hotline number, because what we're hoping for is, even if they're not ready right now, then on when they're ready or they filled that, there's a safe window and then they can call us and in that sense they can then serve them and get them out, because many of them in this lifestyle have been forced to do the legal activity or there's a there's a fear of police or whatever it is.

26:07 So we can be an alternative, because we're not kicking indoors or anything like that. We're literally kind of a specialized taxi service for people wanted to exit this and we can do that as a victim atick an agency. So they don't they can just they can just exit. And many victims I've worked with it is shocked me when kind of you step back and zoom mount and you're going, wow, you didn't leave because you sit didn't have the simple resources to get away. So if you'd had even a few hundred dollars to hire transport and immediate lodging, you maybe could have even done this yourself. But you didn't even have that. You didn't have you barely had clothes on your back. So that level of lack of resources can keep someone very trapped.

26:49 Yeah, and and yeah. So for us, getting the hot line out to the right people is critical and then having our opportunity to respond to a situation we've been invited to. And then, yeah, for other live action situations that are happening in a public setting, one hundred percent get the police in there and it's always appropriate to take information nonetheless and still called the non emergency number, whoever, and just passing that on to law enforcement, because you never, we never can assume what active investigations they have going on. Yeah, and and that information from the community maybe just enough, yeah, to take things to the next level. So it's it's you know, if police are saying hey, I'm good. I mean they're going to communicate that to you if they feel like hey, this really isn't helpful. But I mean, otherwise I'd basically try to pass on information when I have it and let them decide if it's useful. Yeah, yeah, so practically in front of an abortion center where we're going to see, presumably the trafficker and then the victims. And if we strongly suspected and we did call the police, I know in our podcast on domestic violence that that can really endanger the woman because she's going to be punished. So can you talk about that at all? It's it's that effort an issue that the trafficker will then beat the woman afterwards or whatever. Because, yeah, so, well, guess what you're saying, some kind of like the rules of engagement stuff. Yeah, okay's and don'ts. If we see this right, you're saying, of course, call law enforcement and then, of course, if you're able to get the hot line into their hands, get that into their hands. But as

28:19 far as our interactions with that woman, what are some of the things that we should have got it? I got. Yeah, no, that's a really delicate one and and and to some degree most places I speak. I'd price. I don't, you don't. I would encourage people not to engage, for y'all, you're not your average street outreach individuals, volunteers. So I wouldn't try to define what to do or not to do. I'd really leave that up to individuals and to where how the holy spirits moving them. And I'm not going to say dows or don't because, hey, there's no exact playbook for some of the stuff. But I am glad to hear the cock. Our cognisant of some outreach can put victims at risk and that's why when we do ours, we try to be very clandestine about it, because what you don't want to do, we like a matter of fact, good example, we used to do street outreach. We used to like literally go out to where girls were walking, you know, the track, and engage them on the street and just, you know, hand them a card.

29:11 You know, hey if you want to help. But but we saw that there's actually some risk there of the trafficker who's two hundred yards away and an Asu v than saying what was that about? You know, would you tell them, you know, unnecessarily bothering her and then even at Thomas we were like, okay, well, we could discreetly hand it to her while driving by, you know. But we just got to a point where it wasn't very effective, like we almost never had anyone leave right then and we had other other effective measures that that seem to be a lot more productive. I won't go into what those are, but, but, but that seemed to have been working better. So we kind of backed off from street outreach specifically, yeah, because it was the bigger risk with less response. Yeah, so same, same type thing. I would whatever that looks like, you know, for you guys or for other are groups that are may be listening, keep that in mind the way in which you engage, assume you're being watched and try to do not do things that could put more pressure on her, and it could be as simple as coming up with an excuse for your engagement other than providing services so that she has something to report back. Oh, they they were just asking me if I wanted to do adoption or what, you know, whatever it is, and just only talk about that, you know. But it's it is a challenge because we have it has to be some level, you know, of engagement. We can't just say, well, I hope they google this one day, yeah, which, fortunately they might. You know I mean, I know you'll have seen that.

30:33 I mean search engine optimizations a positive thing in this modern context, absolutely so that people with they have that moment to do a quick look online. We want to be up high where they could, they could find us. But it is a balance and and rules of engagement. You know, in many ways the good news is we're in America where we're free to talk to people, you know, and we don't have to walk around fearful of it. So I would really think in context that we just have to be careful that we're not putting someone in a bad position. Right, yeah, right, because even offering the resources he's going to perceive as a threat to his control over that woman because he was under so have that abortion and not talk to people about housing or whatever. Oh, yes, and I'm sure you've experienced it. I'm sure you've had it where you were doing street outreach and the man bringing the lady in tried to intimidate you all. I mean, I'm for you. I'm sure you've had dozens of those cases. Like I'm tough and the reality is a right doesn't work that well, because you're like, I'm I'm not here for you, Buddy. I'm praying for you, but I'm concerned about that baby, yeah, and her belly right now. Let's say best case scenario, we somehow get that woman alone. She does, somehow he's gone away or whatever, and we're able to talk with her.

31:38 What are the resources that you offer? Sure, so we do our best to offer immediate shelter. Okay. So we have a setup where we try to have a response time that is literally within hours of Oh really, it's not always possible because, again, we are recovering north and South Carolina. Okay, we're a small grass roots team. Anyone out there listening to lists to help? We need your money in really bad like we need the financial support. So, because we're very much like a volunteer firefighter department that's covering a two state territory, right. So I'm getting calls that are sometimes spreading you really thin. Yeah, and you have existing clients that also need your help. So, with all that said, when we get a hotline call, our goal would be to be able to get to that survivor within threehour window. You know, and then and then get them set up with some immediate shelter and immediate resources to really have that clean break. Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, you know, when you're dealing with safe houses, you have to almost think like a virologist, you know, and not cross contaminating. You have to kind of a clean break from your active situation get you at a safe housing situation that's separate and on its own to assess and be that emergency time period until you can find the long term housing that we then transition them to, because we don't just pick people up and I'll take them to the same house, because that would be crazy. Right now, if it's a setup or it's fake, you just exposed a secure location. Yeah, so it's multifaceted and how we do the immediate housing, but that's something we try to do. It a quick response. Honestly,

33:10 during covid that's been a little more complicated because of the the health issues there, and then even some of our housing has been limited because they're like, oh, is this a quarantine situation? Are What is like no, no, it's not. You know. So it's complex but in general, on a regular all systems go, we try to respond within hours of the call and get them immediate separation from the situation and and immediate safety and basic resources. Yeah, and do you kind of take over from there then? Also in terms of okay, they've been in the sex trade now for a while, they need work. Oh, yeah, job and whatever. So it or some do you hand them off to another agency or how does it work?

33:50 So, yeah, I'll define it this way. So basically have four areas. You have outreach, which is just engaging the at risk population and which I would be a part of in this. Then you have emergency housing, emergent care, and that can be the first three days to the first three months. I mean we'll have someone set up for sometimes three months before we transition them. If there's limited availability. There's there's still only thousand plus bed space across the country for designated for sex traffick. Yeah, it's a drop in the bucket. So we always have to get creative and outside of the specified sex trafficking bed space. That's a common thing. So that's the emergent care and then what I call program care is when you send them to a woman's home or a housing program. That could be up to twelve months is the idea, and there they're getting more comprehensive care and going through some counseling and healing and then you kind of graduate that and then transition to independent living. And then that's what I call transitional care. So you have outreach, emergent care, program care, transitional care and when we do a little bit of all of it. We have one home for program care that stays fairly occupied. Yeah, right now it's about three quarters full, but we work with groups all across the country that they do have those kind of houses.

35:00 Yeah, from West Coast to Texas you know, to Caroline's all over. Yeah, and and unfortunately so many of them do stay full. The ones that are run well, they stayed full. I mean the as Y'all know, there's a lot of need. So there is room to expand in that topic especially. So where we have focused a lot of our energy is on the emergent side. We found you got to get them out first. If nothing else, helping them get away and get safe and put them on our direction is better than nothing. So we put a lot of energy there. We use our safe houls and then we work with others across the country for long term care. And then we also put a great deal of energy on the transitional because what so often would happen is someone completes a program, they've been out for a year, it's been going great, but they've also been living in this kind of not real life situation because they're having all this support. Yeah, and no rent and don't have a grocery bill or anything like that. Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're supposed to be better now and just go make it, and so many can fall right back into this or something similar, and we don't want that to happen. So we put a lot of our effort on transitional care, and that's helping with rent assistance. Or your car broke down and we're going to help you get it back on the road because you got to keep the car seat and keep your job and get your kids the child care and you know all those things.

36:12 We do do what we can to assist with work placement or at least completing education through a ged or community college, and then we also assist with child care expenses as well, where we can what we have budgeted. I mean, again, we're small budget but we try to make those things a priority because the the individual who's a year and a half out and just trying to get on their feet is just as important and we don't want them to fall right back into it and be someone who's going to call again because we didn't see it through. It's so we do our best to do that. But that's another area where we can invite the local church into it more. I mean we just see ourselves as an arm of the church and a lot of our team are pastor's wives and things like that. But but at that level of volunteerism is is a unique opportunity for just the everyday volunteer who says I want to help somehow. Will Great. Maybe you could be kind of a mentor for the other individual who who just has some like life navigating questions not so much. Helped me work out my trauma questions, which you don't you don't need to need as much training for that. So that that's that's where we put our energies, on the emergent and on the transitional. But even I mean right now the program house we have, I mean it's costing us about eight thousand dollars a month to run that. Wow. So if anyone wants to help us and get started. We're we actually had a donor that was supporting that. They won't be able to continue with that. So we're now fundraising for that, specifically in trying to get a recurring eight thousand a month to keep the safe house fully funded and its own thing and and keep that running smooth. Are Those women that are just in the Charlotte area?

37:43 Are you drawing women from all over, all over country, fall over that safe housing corre? Yeah, all over the yeah, wow. Yeah, it's interesting in that sense. And and so many of the clients we do serve in the Charlotte area in end up going out of state. We had many, many that want I just they want to get away, which makes sense. And Yeah, it's not a bad plan. And once, once that does happen. To answer your earlier question, there is kind of a passing of the baton. At that point. We've done our peace and once we place them with a group in Arizona for now our jobs done, unless they need to call us back. Right. Yeah, how how often do they just return to the same lifestyle or once? The success rate, I guess, of the yeah, of once you get them out of the situation, do most of them make it. I don't have the active numbers.

38:25 In the earlier years I was able to track it a little more and I felt like it was thirty five forty percent would fall back into Instana, collect into it, okay, or fall back into some kind of exploitive context. But one positive is we'd have many of them call us again. Yeah, and then there was an opportunity to to serve that individual second time in. And you know, we're the doors are open if you want help, and it's not. Obviously you adapt it each time because you know we don't want to enable or anything. But but yeah, certainly you made a mistake, don't we all? That's that's what it's supposed to look like. We were supposed to be there for him. So earlier on it was. That's the numbers I were seeing. Right now, I honestly don't have clear numbers because so many of the victims in recent years we've served, we have helped them to the next phase and then our job was done. And if they change phone numbers six months later, I have no way of engaging them, and so I really don't know. You know, and then that's okay.

39:22 You know, it's not I mean we're the stance of call us if you need us kind of thing. But just because I haven't heard from somebody doesn't mean I assume they fallen back into it. So I don't know that it's I'm really hoping it's not that high as it seemed in the earlier years. So and the other benefit we're dealing with is there more houses than there used to be a back when I started, I think there was only six hundred beds nationwide for trafficking. No, no, I'd take that back. In two thousand and ten there was only one hundred beds nationwide designated for sex trafficking survivors. And around two thousand and fourteen, which is when I was reflecting on the is at forty percent. You know, I it was I think there was around six hundred and now probably closer to a thousand. Are More, you know, I you lose track because Agen she's come up and go on to every day. But we're in a much better position, you know, then we were ten years ago at is as a country when it comes to resources. Yeah, what are we looking at as far as statistically, nationally, how many of these? I mean, I know it's hard to gaze. Sure, sure, sort of these shot in the dark estimates, but what are the estimates of how many women are trafficked every year? Yeah, and and all of that. Yeah, it's I mean hundreds of thousands.

40:35 I mean I can say that. I wouldn't try to speculate on numbers. And internationally it's we're talking thirty to forty million, right, you know, type thing people called in human trafficking. In terms of state side, even back in two thousand and ten, when I was starting, the State Department said there was risk of one hundred to three hundred thousand children being trafficked in the US every year. Wow, so that was ten years ago and they were had a hundred to three hundred thousand estimate annually. Yeah, so I was like wow, that's crazy and that's just kids. So we can assume it's actually probably higher than that. And we can assume as it relates to adults and and every demographic, you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of people.

41:20 The other thing we have going on to your point earlier, the most of our clients are US citizens. We do have some that are foreign national and I've done some work down to the border doing trafficking assessments. I briefly was was contracting with Samaritans first last summer just to assist with some some trafficking assessments down there. And and man, we we we have a huge risk of people that are even coming through and have their court date and things like that, that are that are have been tagged, that there's still such a potential risk of them being exploded just due to basic vulnerabilities of yeah, I know the language. I can't work right now. I'm kind of dependent on my sponsor. Even those that assists are seeking asylum and were granted temporary asylum, like, even those are at risk, much less those that have gotten in and are not documented at all. I mean, so certainly they're not calling the police or anything if someone finds them and decides to exploit them.

42:10 So you have, you have a lot of potential risk of foreign nationals being trafficked through the the cartel's just just doing it to an organized crime sense, or even those that have made their way here, you know, whether they're, you know, having asylum or not, they're still a potentially at rest for being manipulated. Yeah, and and that's that. That is just a administrative item that would be so tough to try to analyze and get a handle on, like how big is that possibly? So I think a lot of that's even further underground. But it again, I mean, I think again. My main message is it's it's way bigger than people think, and I think sometimes it surprises me occasionally on social media or whatnot. Is like when you hear about a case and people are like, well, I can't believe this, and I'm like yeah, that's terrible, but guys, it's way bigger than that, you know, and just like having an every day.

43:00 Now one situation here's going missing daily and you're just dealing with massive numbers of people that otherwise you wouldn't really be aware of it. Yeah, I know some folks, at least that I see on social media is almost like this is a conspiracy theory. Yeah, it's really not happening. You people are saying it's happening, but the real numbers are there, you can really find out this is. This is not just some conspiracy that it's happening. It's conspiracy for sure, but it's not just a conspiracy theory. Yeah, it's happening. You know, people are being exploited, children are being exploited and, from what you're saying, abortion, as far as the way these issues tied together, is used as a cover up. Yeah, a manipulation device and other things that we really need to be on the lookout for. Those your minister in front of an abortion center. Absolutely. Yeah, and I think for the listeners I would throw something out that may help provide some context.

43:54 I think very often it's easy to say we have to have a mindset shift, you know, and well, what is what a sex trafficking look like? Because it's it's easy to even drive down a sugar creek or wherever and say, all that's just some my prostitute. You know, maybe, and it might be. However, there's a lot of things that could look like prostitution or look like you're working for yourself, where you're actually not. Yeah, a lot of the individuals we've served, a lot of the young ladies we've assisted, if you just met him on the street or at an eleven or whatever you may be, wouldn't a thought much of it. Yeah, and even if you to your point, if you'd ask them directly, that may say no, I'm fine, get out of my face and cut you out a little bitute. So it's we have this image of like some twelve year old Asian, you know, girl in a cage somewhere, and that's human trafficking and it and it is right and that that is that is very real and very massive concern and that's that's part of it. But it also can kind of be right under your nose. Yeah, and we could even see it and write it off as and why want they get their act together, right? We don't know that there actually is a pimp that is controlling them and unfortunately she actually sees him as Kinind of a boyfriend. So it's really messy. Yeah, but nonetheless he's having her sleep with multiple people to night and he's keeping the money right like. So that is sex trafficking and it's so I think sometimes the reason we are shocked by the numbers is we aren't including that. There's a lot of those cases that may not look like what in our mind it would look like, but it actually is playing out. Are there may be some questions that we could ask if we do happen to get them alone, that would reveal to us what's going on.

45:28 Maybe if they're hesitant at first, to reveal it really obviously for me what is what has been beneficial, because, I mean, here's the thing. In our modern twenty twenty context, a stranger walking up and wanting to help, it's going to freak a lot of people out. And, yeah, you know they're going to say, what is your angle? Yeah, and and and fair enough. I mean I've had so many of our clients tell me and one time or another, wow, you're the first man I've dealt with in years that didn't want anything from me right now. And like even to the point where a new client sometimes will say, say we get them set up with some stuff and bring them groceries, and whenever they'll say, I'll find a way to pay you back, and I go, let me clarify, like, there's no payback here right. Yeah, you think us by getting getting better and get the help that we're trying to offer. And but like even the idea that we legitimately want to help and there's no strings attached. On the flip side, I've often thought, how bad does your situation have to be when you're willing to get into a van with strangers three am off the side of the road. Yeah, you got to say, anything's better than what I'm doing with you know. I mean it's a gutsy move on their part. But so, yeah, to your point, I think we have to go on with the understanding that they're not going to assume there's no strings attached. They're also going to assume you can't handle what I'm going through. And sometimes there's even a testing period of like I'm going to cut you out, I'm going to be difficult because I'm going to see if you're for real, if you really just love me for me, or if you know you're trying to meet a quota or you know, whatever it is.

46:58 And and and that's that's kind of the thing. It just just saying, Hey, we're just here to help, no strings attached. Test us on that. Yeah, I mean it's like if try give me, give it a shot, you don't want it. And I've even I've even had to clarify that with those that we have helped in an emergency context remove and get them placed and get them set up. I say, Hey, I would be really clear, like, especially if they're over eighteen, I say you're not a prisoner here. If it's some point you just want to go like you you can. The only thing I'll ask is you can't tell anybody where this location is and you can't in bite people over here. But you are not trapped. Now, if you feel like you're about to go, please call us first and let us help you on that journey. But you are not stuck. Everything we're offering is free, and I know that sounds crazy because nothing's free, right, but but it is, you know, and we just truly want to help you. So I really almost helping them see that there's that they're not stuck, that, yeah, they have some power here, and I and that. That's the crazy shift. Can you imagine going from a situation for, say, the past three years, you couldn't even decide what you ate or when you ate right or when you slept right, and then now these random church people in our saying hey, what do you what even taste for? What can we pick you up? You know what says jeans, you are you know. It was like, what are you talking about? It could be a very far and like what?

48:12 Who? WHOA? WHOA, Whoa, you know, what are you gonna make me? Do you know what? He's signing me up for. Nothing. We're just here to help and and again. Wow, what a great context when they say, well, why are you doing this? Right, well, that gives you the opportunity. I was just going to ask our do you do you share the gods? Yes, and a party. You get, you get. Didn't say. I'm so glad you asked. Right exactly. There's this Guy Jesus. He's the son of God, the Savior of the world, and I loves you and he's the one that said coming get you. So if you if you don't like what we're offer and take it up with him. It's like but, but Jesus loves you and we love you, and this is a way we can show our love towards Jesus by caring for you. Yeah, and are you seeing people coming to the Lord too? We do. And and you know what else is also fascinated me. How many have actually they do. It may be kind of hidden under the debris, but like somebody them even have some relationship with Christ.

48:59 That's share did is they are. Yeah, and then there's that opportunity to really just bring them, help them come back to intimacy with the Lord. Yeah, it's it's not. Sometimes it's a WHO's Jesus, but but a lot of times it's a yeah, now I know he's out there and it's just then our opportunity as brothers and sisters to then kind of just just lead them back to him and and then then then it really makes sense. And then I think the other important thing for groups like us to do is to see everything we're providing. Again, it's not me. The different bes between the Good Samaritan and US is gets mad and paid for it off his dial is in my money that this is coming from the church and from donors, and this is coming from this is ultimately all the Lords. I mean we all know it's all the Lords and we're just trying to take resources and put it into those that have need. But now that that is the funniest thing.

49:43 In fact, when I've when I've had secular groups try to have us in a gatcha moment. So you're just trying to prosplitize. You try to do this, I'm going actually, we're just registered as a charity, but I say the reality is, would that be so bad? But but secondly, even still almost, I mean ninety nine percent of the time it's the survivors that bring up anything about spirituality or why we're here, even before we need to, because it does come to mind. Why are you here? What is prompting this action? Well, Jesus Christ, that that's why we're here. Yeah, he mad. Well, mark, we're going to wrap this thing up and just a minute, man, but I really appreciate you coming on and the thing talking about all this. But before we wrap this up, is there a story or something you can share just in a situation you've been involved in or justice ministries has been involved in that would encourage folks?

50:30 Sure, yeah, man, there's there's so many. So yeah, I have one in mind and she's got she's got some some children and is doing well now, but she just recently reached out and she's been out a long time. She's doing fine, but you know, she was just saying, Hey, is there, is there anything I can do to help what's going on and help support the ministry, and she even offered to like do some paintings and then things like that to see if like there's something you could auction off or whatever, which was hey, if you want to do that, that's amazing. It's super kind. But just seeing that healing that does take place, that in the support that is able to be provided that's able to help her not be in a place of necessarily survival mode years out.

51:15 Yeah, but like because of that continued transitional care, she's at a place where where her mindsets going to how can I help that the next generation? How can I be there for the other girls? And she's going I'm kind of stay at home mom. I don't have a lot I can do right now. But like, can I draw them? Can I draw pictures? Got To do a craft, got to do anything that would be be useful and and I that's really an encouragement to me to see that it's not this idea of well, I'm a victim and that's what I am. A victim status is temporary. Yeah, like and if for anyone listening it's been through that kind of stuff, there's nothing innately wrong about being victimized. It had nothing to do with you. I mean, even if you made some poor decisions that led to that, still not your fault. We all make poor decisions every single day, like it just it happened to you and there's nothing wrong with the individuals caught up in this. There's something wrong with what happened to them. Yeah, even still if you have been victimized, if you are going through that situation, it is okay to receive help. We all need it. Everyone needs help from time to time, and but that does not define you. That's not where your identity is. And moving forward, if there's any responsibility, it is to say, okay, now that I've gotten the help I need, I'm healthy again. Are Healthy for the first time. Okay, great, it's been certainly if you're a believer. Okay, now go out and serve your neighbor. Yeah, you know if I have any action outem for them, kind of like I told the other girls, no need to pay back, but hey, if you want to help, then help help the next person. And that's really the whole point, because at the end of the day, it's not about being a sex trafficking victim or this or this or this. It's all just image bearers of God.

52:47 We're just people, were brothers and sisters that are all messed up, but we've got a, you know, perfect father and we've got the perfect savior in Jesus, and we can, we can now move forward with life with a light burden because he carries us through it. And and then so that that's that's my message. The enemy and then the world wants us to stay in some kind of label of like you're this, you're this, that, you you are your past. It Ain't aboudy yesterday. It's about where you're at today, from where the Lord's leading you tomorrow. Yeah, a man. So if people wanted to get in touch with you, what's the website and maybe an email address? Reach out to you. Sure. Yeah, the the websites. If you just google us, justice ministries, where you go to wwwe justice ministries dot Org. Okay, we're also on facebook and instagram and we also have a smartphone APP. So if they in your APP store, if you just search justice ministries, our logo is a bison, American Buffalo. Yeah, a lot of people ask us what is that about and when we pick that just because it was a cool looking mascot.

53:45 But but with with Bison, when predators would approach a herd of Bison, they would kind of form a natural kind of a protective perimeter around the smaller bi center with one was sick and things like that, to kind of protect them from from the the wolves or whatever going after them. And and that's kind of our posture where we're here more than defensive posture, not so much offensive. The other thing that's kind of interesting is bison in America used to flourish and run all over the planes and whatnot, and and they almost went extinct, you know, yeah, because they were kind of, if you will, oppressed so heavily. But no one looks at a bison and says wow, what a weak animal, right. So that's again kind of kind of my message to our our survivors. It's like no one looks at Bison and says, Oh wow, I mean that's a strong, strong animal.

54:28 And and what they went through a hundred years ago and nothing to do with them. It was just a greed of other other people. Yeah, but yeah. So, anyways, when you look on the that look us up, you'll see that little logo. Okay, American, cool. So justice ministries dot org and they can reach out to you through that. Your email dress is likely, they're sure, and phone number reach out to. And then, if you guys who are listening, if you want to donate and support their ministry, like any nonprofit, they need your support. Maybe your church has really got a burden for the issue of sex trafficking certainly. I'm sure you guys would love churches supporting him. Oh, I probably already have, and that's sometimes our primary support. Yeah, so, yeah, we we're happy to speak at churches or small groups and happy to set up a zoom meeting or call with with anybody wants to learn more. I mean, I get it, I welcome I welcome the questions and we want to be as straightforward as we can and tell you what we can. That doesn't jeopardize any security. But yeah, it's a weird thing to market. Yeah, this counter sex trafficking is a tough thing to advertise. But but yeah, we certainly appreciate you guys having us and helping us. Hey, thank you for what you're doing in the collaboration. As we it's just all an effort.

55:34 Just just take a stance for life. Yeah, and serve the oppressed and and again, I love what you are doing and we're happy to partner with you where we can. Yeah, I appreciate that. Brother, appreciate your time. I bless you and you guys who are listening. We appreciate you listening. We just ask you to share this podcast, share it with friends and family, put it out on social media. Reach out to me, D parks at cities for lifecom and her V cassie organ cities for Lifecom, if you have any any questions, and maybe other subjects you want us to cover. We'd certainly live a cover their subjects. But until next time, God bless give me our love for love, give me our loft for gratitude. I know it will cost me my life. Nothing's too precious.

56:32 And some met you