Abolitionist or Pro-Life, Which One is Biblical?

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:05.799 I Am Yours, I am yours, I am yours, and me, 2 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:11.150 Lord, I am yours. Welcome to Gospel Center pro life and this episode 3 00:00:11.150 --> 00:00:14.710 we're going to talk to abolitionist Carl Turnmeyer. We're going to ask the question 4 00:00:14.869 --> 00:00:24.379 abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? Stay tuned. I felt 5 00:00:24.820 --> 00:00:34.619 show passish touch your heart. Welcome to the Gospel Center pro life podcast. 6 00:00:34.780 --> 00:00:39.890 Appreciate all those who are watching or listening. The question that we're asking in 7 00:00:39.969 --> 00:00:46.289 this podcast is abolitionist or pro life, which one is biblical? And it's 8 00:00:46.289 --> 00:00:50.960 not really to say that that neither one or both are biblical or ones more 9 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.719 biblical than the other. We're just talking through this thing because it's a question 10 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:57.439 a lot of people have, and so I have with me today Carl Turnmeier, 11 00:00:57.880 --> 00:01:02.600 who is an abolitionist, who's with I don't know. Ah is not 12 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:06.230 necessarily an organization you say you're under, but people have the the AH a 13 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:11.349 philosophy, and so I wanted to just kind of share Carl real quick, 14 00:01:11.349 --> 00:01:15.430 if you can, sort of maybe a summary of what what you see. 15 00:01:15.430 --> 00:01:18.939 And it's not a monolithic group. There's a bunch of different abolitionists and people 16 00:01:18.980 --> 00:01:23.299 that they are part of Aj and whatnot who have different, varying beliefs about 17 00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:26.140 abolition and that sort of thing. But from your perspective, what is the 18 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:32.140 abolishes philosophy? Well, first let me just say that, you know, 19 00:01:32.180 --> 00:01:37.450 I've been involved in this since the late S, okay, my first introduction 20 00:01:37.609 --> 00:01:44.290 to preborn murder. I tend to use that as opposed to the euphemism of 21 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:48.840 abortion. Yeah, sure, because that's the reality of what we're talking about. 22 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.599 Yeah, was when my wife and I were thinking that she was pregnant 23 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:59.799 and I was in college and we went to a clinic to do a pregnancy 24 00:01:59.879 --> 00:02:05.030 test and we found out that she was pregnant. Yeah, and they offered 25 00:02:05.189 --> 00:02:09.830 to provide us with an abortion. Wow, and I grew up, you 26 00:02:09.909 --> 00:02:14.590 know, I'm fifty years old. Grew up in a different generation than today, 27 00:02:14.750 --> 00:02:20.259 certainly, and I was a I was up the belief that, you 28 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:23.379 know, a woman who's pregnant is pregnant with a human child. If she 29 00:02:23.539 --> 00:02:25.020 give your time, she's going to deliver a baby. Yeah, that was 30 00:02:25.139 --> 00:02:30.810 my baby. Yeah, and and that you do what's right. Yeah, 31 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:36.729 and so I was shocked by that option, that opportunity that they were presenting 32 00:02:36.770 --> 00:02:39.169 to us, and my wife was also shocked by it. That was our 33 00:02:39.330 --> 00:02:46.560 first introduction to this and so I from that day a forward, my wife 34 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.560 and I got involved and everything that we could. Regarding pro life, because 35 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.879 we are for life. Yeah, and I think that along with the euphemism 36 00:02:55.919 --> 00:03:04.349 of abortion comes the terminologies around what we're talking about, prolife and abolition. 37 00:03:06.509 --> 00:03:08.870 Can I say that I'm prolife? Absolutely. Would you say your prolife? 38 00:03:08.909 --> 00:03:13.659 Absolutely, because we are for life, we won't. We think life is 39 00:03:13.780 --> 00:03:17.979 something that God has has given and it's of him, and so, you 40 00:03:19.099 --> 00:03:22.259 know, we are for that. God wants us to be for that. 41 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:31.569 As far as abolition goes, in this day abolition has a primary focus on 42 00:03:34.409 --> 00:03:39.330 doing a way with the practice preborn murder. Yeah, but abolition as it 43 00:03:39.530 --> 00:03:45.759 really a mindset or ideology, or spirit, if you will, that has 44 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:50.599 been around eternally. Yeah, Christ came to abolish the works of the devil. 45 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.840 So, yeah, abolition. That word abolish is a scriptural word, 46 00:03:54.990 --> 00:04:00.710 and so and you and you see coming through history, biblical history, of 47 00:04:00.830 --> 00:04:02.870 the the prophets and the things that we're going on with the Kings, when 48 00:04:02.909 --> 00:04:09.430 they were godly men, men of God, they abolished the wicked sins that 49 00:04:09.550 --> 00:04:12.300 were going on in the culture. Yes, you like. They tore down 50 00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:15.459 the high places. They, you know, they destroyed idols, and one 51 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:19.779 of those idols was a idol that children were sacrificed to. Yeah, Molich. 52 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:24.290 Yeah, right. So that a butt, that that ideology or that 53 00:04:24.410 --> 00:04:29.850 philosophy or that spirit what has always been around. It's a in Christ being 54 00:04:29.930 --> 00:04:35.129 the eternal son of God, in the eternal word of God. Having demonstrated 55 00:04:35.170 --> 00:04:41.399 that and spoken that through his word shows us that that is an eternal sort 56 00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.079 of work. Yeah, God's doing. Okay, abolition in my mind is 57 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:51.439 first of all, it's Gospel Centered, Gospel Focus, because, apart from 58 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:58.550 changing the souls of human beings, there's no way that that preborn murder will 59 00:04:58.750 --> 00:05:02.069 will never be unconsionable. Yeah, until you have a change of soul, 60 00:05:02.670 --> 00:05:13.060 mind, will, emotions and deeds, then abortion will not be done away 61 00:05:13.100 --> 00:05:16.540 with. Yeah, that's the key, is to change their hearts and souls 62 00:05:16.579 --> 00:05:20.019 and minds. Yeah, I just had a conversation today. I was talking 63 00:05:20.060 --> 00:05:24.290 to one of the pro choice, I put it in quotes because it's really 64 00:05:24.329 --> 00:05:27.889 pro abortion ladies out in front of the abortion clinic and and she was talking 65 00:05:27.889 --> 00:05:30.009 about and I was talking about this very subject. She was talking about US 66 00:05:30.089 --> 00:05:33.410 limiting abortions and how we want to limit woman's right to choose. I'm like, 67 00:05:33.529 --> 00:05:36.879 well, actually want to limit abortions. I want it to be illegal, 68 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.240 like completely illegal, to have an abortion. And she was like, 69 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.680 well, you know, if you, if you do that, women are 70 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.600 going to have illegal abortions. Some people have a illegal abortions now, like 71 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.029 they still do that. And you don't take a moral evil that I believe 72 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:56.189 abortion to be and in legalize it to make it safe or to make it 73 00:05:56.430 --> 00:06:00.269 look better. It's like it's it's wrong. It's like slavery, he which 74 00:06:00.310 --> 00:06:04.100 is where the abolition is exact lot of the language comes from. You know, 75 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:08.699 you don't make slavery legal so that it's so you're able to regulate it 76 00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:13.060 better. It's a moral evil. People still own slaves now in the city 77 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.500 Charlotte, as a matter of fact, like number, like I don't know 78 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:18.730 what number four or five, and sex trafficking in the nation. And so, 79 00:06:18.930 --> 00:06:24.370 yeah, so speaks the kind of what you're saying, that today there's 80 00:06:24.449 --> 00:06:28.209 more slavery going on in the world than her has ever been in history. 81 00:06:28.290 --> 00:06:32.959 Yeah, so we abolish slavery, but yet slavery still occurs. Does that 82 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:38.519 mean that we were we were we failed or that we were wrong? Absolutely 83 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:41.639 not. We did exactly what should have been done. Yeah, that is 84 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.199 was a moral evil that should have been abolished and we did it. And 85 00:06:45.399 --> 00:06:49.949 yet wicked evil people still seein and bring yeah, break the law and do 86 00:06:50.069 --> 00:06:55.470 criminal things. It's just like murder is abolished in the sense that it is 87 00:06:55.709 --> 00:07:00.750 highly illegal. Yeah, and yet people in Charlotte, you know, highest 88 00:07:00.149 --> 00:07:03.660 more murders I've already occurred this year and then last year. Yeah, you 89 00:07:03.779 --> 00:07:06.500 know, it's not the highest year in history, but you know, yeah, 90 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:12.819 it does. You're speaking to really kind of the really the focus of 91 00:07:12.899 --> 00:07:15.970 this podcast, which we're talking about Gospel centered pro life. Like we started 92 00:07:16.009 --> 00:07:18.529 out the first podcast we did, we we talked about what it means to 93 00:07:18.610 --> 00:07:24.810 be Gospel centered in pro life, and there's pro life ministries and organizations that 94 00:07:24.850 --> 00:07:28.689 are out there that, you know, come at it from maybe a philosophical 95 00:07:29.089 --> 00:07:31.959 standpoint, which, you know, philosophy certainly is great and all of that, 96 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:38.360 and I don't downplay that, but if we're not focused in the Gospel, 97 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:41.079 like you're saying, if the Gospel isn't the key isn't the focus, 98 00:07:41.800 --> 00:07:45.910 then the human heart isn't changed and abortion is still kind of an option. 99 00:07:45.990 --> 00:07:47.750 They are. So, yeah, you're speaking, you're speaking my language rather. 100 00:07:47.790 --> 00:07:51.709 Absolutely, Gospel Changes and there for the Gospel to be the center with 101 00:07:53.029 --> 00:07:56.870 that means that the scripture has got to be yeah, you know, a 102 00:07:57.230 --> 00:08:00.899 major key to doing it, because that's where you find the Gospel. And 103 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:05.620 so we take the full Gospel, we don't truncate it, we don't aggregate 104 00:08:05.660 --> 00:08:11.860 it, we give everything that got that Christ presented. That that the the 105 00:08:11.939 --> 00:08:15.810 whole Scriptures present in the Gospel. But we also take into count the whole 106 00:08:15.810 --> 00:08:20.769 council of scripture, because we don't discount the the way the that God spoke 107 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:22.649 to his people there, the way that God work through his people or the 108 00:08:22.689 --> 00:08:26.050 way that God uses his people, whether it was Old Testament and New Testament 109 00:08:26.129 --> 00:08:30.560 or today. Yeah, so the whole council of Scripture has got to come 110 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.720 into play as we reach people with the Gospel and then we disciple them through 111 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:41.269 the Gospel into becoming full, you know, mature believers. Yeah, that's 112 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:45.350 got to be done through the whole council of Scripture. Yeah, well, 113 00:08:45.389 --> 00:08:48.070 speak real quick if you if you can again, this is not, you 114 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:50.549 know, this is not a debate format. We're debating about this thing. 115 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:56.659 I personally as as a dude that just loves Jesus and loves people and things. 116 00:08:56.700 --> 00:09:00.220 Abortion is evil. I say I'm prolife because I'm for life, and 117 00:09:00.259 --> 00:09:03.340 people know what you're saying. You say your prolife. Oh you're against abortion. 118 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:07.100 Yeah, I'm contended to be called anti abortion, like I'm anti slavery, 119 00:09:07.340 --> 00:09:11.169 I'm Antisex, draffing him, I'm anti drug addiction, anti for an 120 00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:15.730 occasion. So I'm content. But so just a regular dude like myself who's 121 00:09:15.769 --> 00:09:18.730 not, you know, maybe necessarily in the abolitionist camp, but probably agree 122 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:24.080 with a lot of the tenants of abolition. Speak a little bit, if 123 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:28.120 you can, about the differences between pro life and abolition, like why you 124 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:33.279 personally wouldn't say I'm part of the pro life move right. Well, like 125 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:37.590 I said before, and sharing my personal testimony, was that when my wife 126 00:09:37.590 --> 00:09:46.190 and I started early, you know, thirty years ago, working for for 127 00:09:46.429 --> 00:09:50.549 life, the avenue that we took, which was pretty kind of the only 128 00:09:50.590 --> 00:09:58.419 available avenue, and me not being a mature believer at the time, just 129 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:03.779 being introduced into, you know, living the Christian life. Yeah, that 130 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:09.250 was pro life. Was the movement that you only came in town. Maybe. 131 00:10:09.330 --> 00:10:15.250 Yeah. So I spent at least a decade working in and every facet 132 00:10:15.409 --> 00:10:18.210 that I could in the pro life movement. You know, certainly in my 133 00:10:18.330 --> 00:10:22.639 church, in the community, being involved on the board of directors at my 134 00:10:22.679 --> 00:10:26.200 local Pregnacy Care Center, counseling, you know, marching, being in the 135 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:31.840 streets, raising money, leading my church to go and be involved, speaking 136 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.230 to other churches, other pastors. So you know, I kind of run 137 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:41.710 the gamut of of pro life work. And at the end of the day, 138 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:46.789 at the end of the decade, I was disappointed. Yeah, I 139 00:10:46.909 --> 00:10:54.580 was frustrated because I didn't see the fruit, I guess, and there the 140 00:10:54.700 --> 00:11:01.019 results. And then I started thinking what's going on here? And and when 141 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:03.970 you when you try to figure out, after you've invested a decade into doing 142 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:07.610 something, what's going on, you got to back up. You got to 143 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:09.649 back up not only the decade that you've been going on, but before that, 144 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:13.090 what was going on? Where did I come in and what was going 145 00:11:13.129 --> 00:11:16.490 on before I came in? And so I started backing up and I backed 146 00:11:16.529 --> 00:11:22.679 up to Rov Wade and I backed up to the early nineteen century. And 147 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.639 and so I started and then I started studying about abolition. And when you 148 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.909 go through the history of abolition, not only do you find it in the 149 00:11:33.990 --> 00:11:37.029 scriptures, and I was certainly studying the scriptures as well as I could, 150 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.629 and I was seeing these people, you know, fighting and speaking out a 151 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:46.389 proclaiming the word of God against, you know, being against the evil and 152 00:11:46.509 --> 00:11:52.259 wicked in the world. And and so that was an inspiration for me to 153 00:11:52.419 --> 00:11:56.179 find out. You know, how do you how do you do that today 154 00:11:56.980 --> 00:12:05.090 with this evil? Yeah, and and obviously the correlations between this evil of 155 00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:09.809 the humanization of the preborn matches a lot of the dehumanization that was going on 156 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:13.090 with slavery. Yes, sure, and abolitionists were there. And so you 157 00:12:13.769 --> 00:12:20.039 run that thing up to those early abolitionist British abolitionist, early American abolitionists, 158 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:26.600 and you study those guys, Wilberforce and garrison and and those guys, and 159 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:30.309 you see what was going on and you read the things that they said, 160 00:12:30.429 --> 00:12:35.110 the things that they did. Powerful now from me, and that made an 161 00:12:35.149 --> 00:12:39.990 impact that they were hated. Yeah, and you know, Jesus said, 162 00:12:41.029 --> 00:12:43.830 if the world loves you, better take a look at the right yeah, 163 00:12:43.950 --> 00:12:46.500 they're going to hate you the same way they hated me and they certainly hated 164 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:50.100 these guys, and these guys were certainly Christians and Biblical. And so I 165 00:12:50.379 --> 00:13:00.610 found a lot of passion and compassion and inspiration through those early abolitionists that inspired 166 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:05.490 me to being abolitionists. Yeah, but you when you went through a minute 167 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:11.009 ago talking about being anti and being proud of that, and I appreciate that 168 00:13:11.129 --> 00:13:15.440 because I'm anti too. Yeah, and one of the things that I found 169 00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:22.720 to be a difference between prolife and abolitionist is that today in my community with 170 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:30.470 the pro life folks, when I have spoken to them and said anything about 171 00:13:30.470 --> 00:13:41.980 abortion being murder or being an abolitionist and being against abortion, I've been reprimanding. 172 00:13:43.139 --> 00:13:46.460 Okay, yeah, as being anti, you know, abortion. We 173 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.340 don't want to be anti abortion, we want to be prolife. Yeah, 174 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:54.019 and and so the one of the things about pro life movement is I think 175 00:13:54.179 --> 00:14:01.490 that they want to be so positive that they waiver on the truth sometimes or 176 00:14:01.490 --> 00:14:07.450 they compromise for the positivity of being pro life, which what we were talking 177 00:14:07.610 --> 00:14:16.159 earlier before the program the justification that that can sometimes present to people who are 178 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.639 abortion or murder minded. Yeah, when we're soft on that or when we're 179 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.710 positive, that takes the edge off of the reality of what they're doing. 180 00:14:26.950 --> 00:14:31.029 Yeah, yeah, so that's one. Just one thing. Yeah, one 181 00:14:31.070 --> 00:14:43.059 of the other biggest things for me is the meet the immediate call for abolition 182 00:14:43.220 --> 00:14:46.820 to accolish and we're to getting get around it. It is it. That's 183 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.539 kind of the some of the tension. It's like it is mediatism versus incrementalism. 184 00:14:50.659 --> 00:14:54.769 So, yeah, and so so. So to clarify that one a 185 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:58.210 little bit, is what I like to think of is I when we talk 186 00:14:58.289 --> 00:15:05.330 a about immediate we are talking about it's sort of like a decision for Christ. 187 00:15:05.730 --> 00:15:09.399 When I'm sharing the Gospel with you or I'm leading a person to Christ, 188 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:13.600 I lead everybody to Christ. Yeah, they where do they choose? 189 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.960 Right, it is there, you know, on them. But you lead 190 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:22.070 everybody to Christ. And what is your desire? That today is the day 191 00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:26.070 of salvation. You want that immediate decision, that immediate change of mind, 192 00:15:26.149 --> 00:15:33.309 that immediate newness of life, Spirit field, salvation, justification on the spot. 193 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.779 Yeah, and so that's the way I picture abolition as we want the 194 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:43.820 immediate end to this evil sin. There's no compromise with it. It's pure 195 00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:50.370 evil, wicked and we want an immediately into it and that takes steps, 196 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:58.450 which sounds like incrementalism, right, yeah, but incrementalism tends to be okay 197 00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:04.639 all along the way and abolition is never okay all along the way, because 198 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:11.080 we wanted the mediate end. We're always set, you know, our we're 199 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:15.279 star, our focus is set like flint to that immediate, yeah, end, 200 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:23.429 and so anything that that takes the edge off of that immediate, you 201 00:16:23.509 --> 00:16:30.149 know, impact is is hard for us to swallow. It's yeah, it 202 00:16:30.350 --> 00:16:33.580 seems a little bit like compromise. And so then then you start getting into 203 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:36.379 all the details of that and you could chase a thousand realities. Yeah, 204 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.539 on the details, but but the the easiest details are the incremental legislation that's 205 00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:45.980 going on shore for Life Movement for decades. Yeah. Well, like we 206 00:16:47.059 --> 00:16:49.370 talked about, like you said before the program we're talking a little bit about 207 00:16:49.370 --> 00:16:55.090 the politics of abortion and how a lot of of the political system, you 208 00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:59.610 know, a lot of these prolife I say that in quotes, politicians are 209 00:16:59.649 --> 00:17:04.079 basically, you just playing on people sensitivities to get votes and in store that 210 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:08.319 becomes a problem. Yeah, huge problem for me. This again, just 211 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:15.509 a just a regular dude who thinks Jesus is awesome and loves people and hates 212 00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:22.509 abortion. But to me, when I see legislation, which I you know, 213 00:17:22.549 --> 00:17:26.390 I've heard the debates, have listened to some debates between the abolitionist and 214 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:32.299 prolife people about that incrementalism when legislation pass. He did some legislation, I 215 00:17:32.420 --> 00:17:36.460 think it's two thousand and thirteen here North Carolina, where they said basically, 216 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:38.380 you know, a woman has to be given the ultrasound, she has to 217 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:41.460 be able to see the ultrasound. And then they did a twenty week band 218 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:45.369 and you know, we're people rejoicing over that. I was like yeah, 219 00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:48.009 I guess, Praise God. You know, it's a band. If I'm 220 00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:51.529 a baby at twenty one weeks, my mom walks into it them. I'll 221 00:17:51.529 --> 00:17:53.650 look at it from love your neighbor. This baby's my neighbor. If I'm 222 00:17:53.650 --> 00:17:57.569 a baby that's twenty one weeks, my mom walks into an abortion clinic and 223 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:00.960 because of the twenty one week or twenty week ban, she can't kill me, 224 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:06.279 I'm going to be happy for that legislation. The problem, I think, 225 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.039 comes in again just looking at it from a practical perspective. The problem 226 00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.990 of it comes in if we're able to settle, and a lot of people 227 00:18:12.990 --> 00:18:17.589 are like we won some kind of victory because we have a twenty week ban 228 00:18:17.910 --> 00:18:21.269 or or whatever we might have. We have a partial birth abortion band and 229 00:18:21.349 --> 00:18:22.789 we want some kind of victory. I'm like, well, if that's how 230 00:18:22.829 --> 00:18:25.589 we're going to view it, if we're going to think, think that we 231 00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:30.180 can go take a breath because we got this incremental thing, I don't think 232 00:18:30.180 --> 00:18:33.740 so, guys. We got to press into this time. We gotta see 233 00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:37.019 if we believe abortion is murder, and I do. We need to see 234 00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:42.369 this thing completely legal right. But I am I'm sort of okay with incremental 235 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:47.650 bands on abortion, like the the fetal heartbeat bills and things like that in 236 00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:52.130 Alabama. I don't find myself being like saddened by that because I'm thinking, 237 00:18:52.170 --> 00:18:56.279 okay, Mama's are not going to be able to kill their babies past six 238 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.000 weeks and I'm happy. So tell me why I'm wrong and can and don't 239 00:19:02.119 --> 00:19:04.240 you know, don't don't hold backkause, because I'm not. I want to 240 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.079 be corrected. I want to be consistent with the Bible, absolutely and and 241 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.470 that is the word. Brother, you hit the nail on the head without 242 00:19:12.470 --> 00:19:17.869 me even having to say a word. Is Consistency. So for me and 243 00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:25.380 you, we both love God and we hate seeing murder of babies. To 244 00:19:25.500 --> 00:19:30.779 be fully consistent, we have to hate all of that. Yeah, the 245 00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:36.299 thing I see with legislation, whether it's a twenty week band heartbeat bill, 246 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:42.450 you know, obviously the I mean we've got a group of politicians out there 247 00:19:42.529 --> 00:19:45.410 now, just like I was sharing with the earlier about the democratic debates, 248 00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:51.250 who don't even bother anymore. Yeah, because they're so gone. It's a 249 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:55.839 settled issue. We can practically, you know, unless that baby's walking out 250 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:57.240 of the building, we can kill it. Yeah, you know, I 251 00:19:57.319 --> 00:20:02.720 mean they're that's how far they've come. So that that's a bizarre, crazy 252 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:06.799 mind set for me. But but getting back to, you know, the 253 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:15.470 the legislation. A lot of this legislation is almost impossible to enforce. Yeah, 254 00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:21.980 not only that, is it puts a lot of the decisionmaking in the 255 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:26.859 hands of the very people who are committing the murders now and have been for 256 00:20:26.980 --> 00:20:32.180 decades. Yeah, not good people. Right, murders, liars, steelers, 257 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:37.690 cheats, you know, lustful, corrupt everything you can label them. 258 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:41.130 That's where they are and we cannot trust those people. And by that you 259 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:44.730 mean like the people who run the abortion absolutely, yeah, the abortionist, 260 00:20:44.769 --> 00:20:47.809 the ultrasound technicians, all those people that are going on in there. So, 261 00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:55.359 so what has really impressed me of recent years is some of these abolitionist 262 00:20:55.440 --> 00:21:03.000 who have gone and testified before local councils, have testified in court situations, 263 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:10.190 who have testified in other areas that they have shared then their expertise and their 264 00:21:10.269 --> 00:21:17.230 experience the the shortcomings of some of these legislations. Yeah, one being the 265 00:21:17.309 --> 00:21:19.940 heartbeat bill, and Sarah Cleveland is an abolitionist and she's very seen her own 266 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:26.740 face because she has done some very good interviews and testimonies regarding this, her 267 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:33.170 skill set and how easily a heartbeat bill can be avoided and being yeah, 268 00:21:33.250 --> 00:21:44.529 be you know, gone around. Yeah, and and so the consistency is 269 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:55.599 so hard to maintain in a legislation that has exceptions and compromise built in to 270 00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:59.319 it. Yeah, it, I mean, I say so hard, I 271 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.789 think it's impossible. Quite honestly, yeah, I think you cannot be consistent 272 00:22:03.670 --> 00:22:10.150 with abolition or the ending of in the hatred of the sin of murder if 273 00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:21.859 you celebrate as a victory the legislation that has compromise and loopholes. Yeah, 274 00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:25.220 speak right. Yeah, I mean you have a you have, you know, 275 00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:27.859 like I mentioned earlier, in North Carolina we had, believe it's two 276 00:22:27.859 --> 00:22:33.170 thousand and thirteen, the women's right to no act, which you said that 277 00:22:33.250 --> 00:22:36.450 the woman was supposed to see the ultrasound or at least given the opportunity to 278 00:22:36.450 --> 00:22:40.849 see the ultra sounder for baby. There was information that from the state that 279 00:22:40.970 --> 00:22:44.799 she had to have about the risks of abortion and fetal development and stuff like 280 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:49.720 that. There's a seventy two hour waiting period and and then the twenty week 281 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.200 ban, I think, was wrap. That could be kind of conflating things, 282 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:56.160 I think maybe, but there was a right away. There was a 283 00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:59.910 judge, because when I heard about the ultrasound thing, I'm like, okay, 284 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.190 we know the ultrasound does give a window to the womb and it does 285 00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.150 save lives. Again, we'd have to trust the abortion clinic is actually going 286 00:23:07.190 --> 00:23:11.309 to do it. They are supposed to do but that got thrown out anyway. 287 00:23:11.390 --> 00:23:15.059 That got thrown out by some judge and Greensboro like right away, and 288 00:23:15.259 --> 00:23:19.019 then the information that's given to them as their counseling. I'm like, okay, 289 00:23:19.059 --> 00:23:22.059 so we we're going to believe this abortion clinic is actually going to give 290 00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:26.259 them the proper information. And actually we found out they can just call up 291 00:23:26.299 --> 00:23:29.490 on the phone and that's how they get their counsels. Are Recording or whatever. 292 00:23:30.210 --> 00:23:33.210 But the twenty week band, to me it was like, okay, 293 00:23:33.289 --> 00:23:37.609 if babies are saved from that, you know, I'm happy for I'm sort 294 00:23:37.690 --> 00:23:42.200 of like people ask me about politics, I'm like the the go to ask 295 00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:45.680 your questions about abortion guy, because I'm in front of an abortion clinic on 296 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.720 a regular basis and a lot of times I'm sort of embarrassed because, you 297 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.480 know what, I don't really know to about all this stuff. Nashally. 298 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.509 All I know is I'm called to be a witness for these babies at the 299 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.349 abortion clinics and ask people to come over and talk with me and convince them 300 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:04.069 not to kill her babies. So when I hear stuff I hear like like 301 00:24:04.309 --> 00:24:07.869 heartbeat bills and stuff like that, I you know, I'm not not down 302 00:24:07.910 --> 00:24:11.380 about it. One of the things that does trouble me and I think we 303 00:24:11.859 --> 00:24:14.539 and this is sort of like, you know, I absolutely agree with this. 304 00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:18.819 Are The exceptions? A matter of fact, it seems like often times, 305 00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:22.859 and that's what happened with Rov Wade, is the exceptions become the rule. 306 00:24:22.059 --> 00:24:26.410 Yes, right, so the rape exception, the incest exception and the 307 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.009 health of the mother is like wow, okay, do we really believe that 308 00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:33.250 this is a baby? And even if it's a baby, even if it's 309 00:24:33.250 --> 00:24:38.759 a person that was conceived in rape, there's no difference between that baby as 310 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:45.480 far as value is concerned or any other thing concerned is concerned. Then a 311 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:49.720 baby, he was not conceived in rape. So those exceptions certainly do cause 312 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.789 me concerned. I'm like, well, this is, you know, these 313 00:24:52.829 --> 00:24:57.910 are again loopholes. Like I said, yeah, the exceptions are there. 314 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:03.349 In on one hand they're clear, HMM, clearly wrong. On the other 315 00:25:03.470 --> 00:25:11.779 hand we're talking about tragic, horrific circumstances, because it then the reality of 316 00:25:11.859 --> 00:25:15.500 that. So rape, if a woman's rape, that's a horrible scene. 317 00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:19.619 Oh yeah, committed against her, incest, horrible sin committed against her. 318 00:25:22.089 --> 00:25:29.569 And certainly there are health conditions and medical conditions where women are vulnerable and pregnancy's 319 00:25:29.609 --> 00:25:33.769 not a you know it, although it's normal, some things it's very difficult. 320 00:25:33.769 --> 00:25:37.079 I grew up on a farm, birth and cows and horses and goats 321 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:40.640 and you know all that, and so it's a and I you know, 322 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:44.000 I saw my own children. But yeah, so the animal kingdom moves into 323 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:49.309 the human so it is a there's loss of blood, there's there's all kinds 324 00:25:49.349 --> 00:25:53.549 of things that going on. Their pain that you know, that can be 325 00:25:53.789 --> 00:26:03.230 a scary situation and medical situation. So on the one hand that they're clear 326 00:26:03.990 --> 00:26:10.539 that they're wrong and all the other hand they are things that can be manipulated 327 00:26:10.700 --> 00:26:17.740 and used to justify. Yeah, and so we have to again be consistent 328 00:26:18.650 --> 00:26:25.490 that there is no justification for this, and sometimes that can come off, 329 00:26:25.970 --> 00:26:29.170 you know, kind of hard. One of the things, you know, 330 00:26:29.650 --> 00:26:33.680 you mentioned about several times now about just being a regular guy. I'm so 331 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.240 we have I'm a regular guy to did you? I'm not a I'm not 332 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.720 a professional, I'm not a historian, I'm not a you know anything, 333 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.519 just a guy loves Jesus and and a guy that hates sin of murder. 334 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:51.150 And so I don't have all the answers, you know, and I don't 335 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:56.150 know how you, you know, walk a woman through some of these harsh 336 00:26:56.269 --> 00:27:02.380 situations. But but I know that we cannot allow the rarity and the exception 337 00:27:02.619 --> 00:27:11.059 to be the rule and we've got to make sure that we do everything we 338 00:27:11.259 --> 00:27:15.259 can according to the Scriptures and according to the love of God and the compassion 339 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:21.450 of God and the care that God would would offer to those exceptional cases. 340 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:25.410 Yeah, and I think that's where we fall short sometimes, and I know 341 00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:30.519 you guys do a great job at that, with the care and compassion that 342 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.920 you show the ladies on the sidewalks and walk and giving them the opportunity to 343 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:38.680 have an ultrasound and to see the baby and not be manipulated like they would 344 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.960 be if there was a requirement in the clinic to do an ultrasound where they 345 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.430 could hide the heartbeat, they could hide the end edge or they could tell 346 00:27:47.509 --> 00:27:52.309 them some sort of deceptive lie that their child is deformed or something. You 347 00:27:52.470 --> 00:27:56.829 guys are kind and compassionate and loving and, you know, graceful and merciful 348 00:27:56.869 --> 00:28:00.259 and you bring them in there and you show them picture and you talk sweetly 349 00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:07.380 to him and and those things are impactful and they they exhibit Christlikeness to those 350 00:28:07.460 --> 00:28:12.130 women and that's a drawl God, the spirit of God uses that. Yeah, 351 00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:19.730 and one other thing is that, although we're highly opposed to the exceptions 352 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:26.359 and to the compromising legislation, I know from my own testimony and personal experience 353 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.559 and from the word of God that God causes all things to work together for 354 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:36.640 good. Yeah, things that are absolutely atrociously evil, wicked, sinful that 355 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:41.549 that man does, God will work those things out for those who love him 356 00:28:41.589 --> 00:28:47.109 are call according his purposes. So you let a woman and you've talked with 357 00:28:47.230 --> 00:28:51.950 them. I've talked with them. They have done murder, they have committeth 358 00:28:52.269 --> 00:28:56.019 murder, murdered their preborn children, some of them numerous times. Yeah, 359 00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:02.259 theyk find forgiveness, yeah, in Christ. They find new life in Gris. 360 00:29:02.420 --> 00:29:06.660 Actually just had a moment today, who God calls peoples and clinic. 361 00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:11.450 Yeah, God caused that horrible sin of murder and we work, we transition 362 00:29:11.650 --> 00:29:17.890 from the horrible seeing and compromising legislation to the actual carrying out of that. 363 00:29:18.930 --> 00:29:22.490 God can cause good to come out of that in the salvation of that mother 364 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:29.240 or future children or a husband or a relative or whatever. And I'm not, 365 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.000 you know, don't you know, Miss Construe what I'm saying. I'M 366 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:37.200 NOT JUSTIFYING RIGHT IN AL along the way, because we talked about that over 367 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.869 there. There is no justification and we got to be really that's a delicate 368 00:29:41.069 --> 00:29:47.549 thing that that we, you know, kind of dance around sometimes or have 369 00:29:47.710 --> 00:29:55.140 to maneuver through in order to not, you know, be justifying in our 370 00:29:55.220 --> 00:30:00.460 thoughts and our words or presentation to someone else to allow them to justify. 371 00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:04.779 Yeah. So, yeah, just sharing. We had today mom who came 372 00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:10.250 to the abortion center and she was on her fourth abortion. She had three 373 00:30:10.369 --> 00:30:15.690 prior abortions. Now she was under heavy pressure from the boyfriend, who was 374 00:30:15.730 --> 00:30:19.369 a good guy except for the four babies he wanted to murder, three that 375 00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:22.880 it already murdered. She came, thankfully, came on board the mobultry sound 376 00:30:22.920 --> 00:30:29.720 unit and and Vicky and the other counselors showed her babies fifteen weeks. She 377 00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.720 could see clearly little baby's feets and feet and she's like, you know, 378 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.029 in all of the same and ultimately she came under conviction. They share the 379 00:30:38.069 --> 00:30:41.470 Gospel. We do sort of the way of the Master Ray Comfort. When 380 00:30:41.589 --> 00:30:45.390 shared the law, we lay it on them heavy and they see their sin. 381 00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:48.349 It's like, well, Jesus needs to be Lord of your life. 382 00:30:48.390 --> 00:30:49.859 This is not just the thing you do on Sunday. You need to surrender 383 00:30:49.859 --> 00:30:52.660 your life to cheese. And she did and now she's, you know, 384 00:30:53.180 --> 00:30:57.380 working through and now she's empowered to go speak to that boyfriend and be like, 385 00:30:57.859 --> 00:31:00.619 you know, I'm not doing this. She didn't want to. I 386 00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:03.410 was on the streets of Ashville a week or so ago and I had a 387 00:31:03.890 --> 00:31:08.130 lady and her friend approached me and I was holding my sign, graphic image 388 00:31:08.130 --> 00:31:15.210 sign, and she she had mixed feelings about what I was doing. She 389 00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:22.759 was pro life. She was a counselor post abortive counselor, because she had 390 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:26.079 had four abortions. Yeah, and she that was very think first things out 391 00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:30.400 of her mouth when she approached me was I've had four abortions and now I'm 392 00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:36.990 forgiven. I'm a Christian and I'm counseling women who are post abortive and, 393 00:31:37.309 --> 00:31:41.869 you know, trying to prevent them, you know, from doing abortion abortions. 394 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:48.619 But I am unsure about your methods. Yeah, what you're doing out 395 00:31:48.660 --> 00:31:52.299 here holding a sign, and you know what your friend is doing, preaching 396 00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:56.819 so loud and you know, yeah, the Gospel, and you know some 397 00:31:56.940 --> 00:32:00.339 other things that he's say and you know the law. Yeah, and I'm 398 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:06.529 thinking, I understand, you know, this image juice graphic and it is 399 00:32:06.650 --> 00:32:14.529 graphic to me and it disturbs me because it's the reality. Yeah, and 400 00:32:15.529 --> 00:32:19.480 what happens in Ashville, what happens in Charlotte, what happens in my city 401 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:24.079 of Hickory, where there's is no abortion clinic? Is that out of sight, 402 00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:27.839 out of mind? Yeah, and and we've, you know, we've 403 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.349 spent decades out of sight, out of mind, and and we're getting into 404 00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:38.869 a time that we were seeing clinics close. And, YEP, we're seeing 405 00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:43.829 new, bigger ones being built, but we're seeing a lot of clothes and 406 00:32:44.230 --> 00:32:52.140 we're seeing maybe a drop at times in numbers of statistics. are numbers that 407 00:32:52.180 --> 00:33:00.369 are kept. Yeah, we get access to murders that are committed, but 408 00:33:00.369 --> 00:33:07.369 you know, we're we're getting in a delicate, a tricky situation, because 409 00:33:07.769 --> 00:33:13.119 the science is allowing these women to murder their children much easier. Yeah, 410 00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.799 at home or in a hotel room or, you know, these peels that 411 00:33:16.880 --> 00:33:22.920 they can take that yeah, that you know. And so we've the the 412 00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:30.390 issue of the Gospel and the Scriptures and the the immediate decisionmaking and and the 413 00:33:31.549 --> 00:33:37.470 assistance that you provide a great deal of and that that it's necessary, and 414 00:33:37.990 --> 00:33:43.700 and the agitation of showing the world what's going on, just like they showed 415 00:33:44.660 --> 00:33:47.660 the world slavery. Yeah, showed the world the holocaust of the Jews. 416 00:33:49.819 --> 00:33:54.059 The world has got to see this and face it and in order to honestly 417 00:33:54.890 --> 00:34:00.009 praise you know where they are? Yeah, I know some of the you 418 00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:05.690 know, I actually try to stay as much as I can away from the 419 00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:08.929 back and forth on facebook and social media and all the stuff, because I 420 00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:13.679 see, you know, I see abolitionist folks argue with pro life folks and 421 00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:17.440 prolife folks argue with each other and a Ja or abolition its folks argue other. 422 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:21.320 It's like, man, there's a lot argue going on and like man, 423 00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:24.789 I just I deal with like contention every day right out in front of 424 00:34:24.829 --> 00:34:28.389 an abortion clink. I got want to deal with it on social media as 425 00:34:28.389 --> 00:34:30.789 I sort of stay out of it. But some of the contention I see 426 00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:37.550 is kind of around methodology, which is, you know, using victims of 427 00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:44.219 abortion, which we actually we do use victim of abortion images. We don't 428 00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:46.780 use them as much as we used to because we find that our interactions are 429 00:34:46.820 --> 00:34:52.699 more hostile. So we want to have interactions where we're actually can have a 430 00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.050 conversation with somebody strategic with it, and I think you guys are, because 431 00:34:55.050 --> 00:35:00.369 I think that when I've been with you on the street and I brought my, 432 00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:05.329 you know, graphic image, I stand there with my image. I 433 00:35:05.329 --> 00:35:09.000 don't have a whole lot of interaction with the actual girls they're going in or 434 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:15.800 women that are going in you, and but they everybody sees my sign. 435 00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:22.550 Yeah, I have some interaction with the you know, people who are evil 436 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:24.590 and wicked and want to, you know, scream at me and curse me 437 00:35:24.989 --> 00:35:29.670 or mock me. But, but, but do you guys have the images? 438 00:35:30.030 --> 00:35:34.829 But you have them their strategically located and sometimes there with somebody who's doing 439 00:35:35.349 --> 00:35:38.579 basically the same thing I'm doing, which is exposing the evil. But you 440 00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:44.500 have other people that are strategically located, that don't have the graphic image, 441 00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:49.380 that are with you. Okay, so you got both sides covered. You're 442 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:53.329 exposing the evil and you're also, with this person, providing the opportunity to 443 00:35:53.369 --> 00:36:00.369 talk and minister and share the Gospel and offer assistance and you know all those 444 00:36:00.409 --> 00:36:05.239 other things. And so they see that guy with the sign and they may 445 00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.599 be a little taken back by that or reject it, but they don't reject 446 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.199 her. Yeah, her, you know, comforting words or, you know, 447 00:36:13.400 --> 00:36:17.440 call to talk. So you're really good at that. Okay. And 448 00:36:19.869 --> 00:36:23.789 and those are things that we talk about as abolitionist when we meet. Is 449 00:36:24.349 --> 00:36:30.550 Strategy. Yeah, we've got to be wise, you know, and we 450 00:36:30.670 --> 00:36:36.059 got to be nice. But why? Why is the service and Genie? 451 00:36:37.019 --> 00:36:40.260 So I don't want use the word gentle now. Yeah, but we've got 452 00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:45.860 to we got to be you know. Yeah, all in all, when 453 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:47.849 we when it comes to that. And so we talked about those things. 454 00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:52.929 So when we go out, we kind of try to have the thing covered, 455 00:36:53.409 --> 00:36:59.409 our basis covered when we go to you know, that's why it's better 456 00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:01.280 the more you people you have with you, the more those things. When 457 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:07.599 we talked about some of the other ministries that are involved in pro life that 458 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:14.079 you know, they don't engage. They may have a worship service or they 459 00:37:14.119 --> 00:37:21.510 may do praying or they may sing or whatever, but they don't engage. 460 00:37:21.710 --> 00:37:24.309 Well, that's okay. I know that when I've been on the sidewalk and 461 00:37:24.429 --> 00:37:30.179 I'm engaging and I'm one of a few and I'm out numbered twenty two one 462 00:37:30.900 --> 00:37:35.139 by the other side. And you know, and that in the spiritual warfare 463 00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:37.500 is already going on. Yeah, more some people. Yeah, and it's 464 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:42.059 dark and it's horrible in the enemies there, you know. And so, 465 00:37:42.380 --> 00:37:45.170 and then all of a sudden you got a group of thirty hundred people from 466 00:37:45.170 --> 00:37:51.090 the church coming down the street singing and praising the Lord and preaching or or 467 00:37:51.769 --> 00:37:54.329 praying or given testimony. That's an encouragement. Yeah, you know, and 468 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:59.960 it tends to shut down the you know, the Voice of the Inn, 469 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:02.679 I mean. Yeah, so, so those things are necessary and are good. 470 00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.079 We just can't we've got to be consistent. I think that the consistency 471 00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:12.480 needs to be with them, with us and us with them, you know. 472 00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.829 And and whatever area you're in, whether your sidewalk counseling or you're showing 473 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:21.869 a graphic image or you're preaching, you know, Street preaching the Gospel, 474 00:38:21.869 --> 00:38:27.070 or if you're singing and worshiping. We those things need to be covered and 475 00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:31.420 we need to be consistent and we need to be together. Yeah, and 476 00:38:31.780 --> 00:38:37.179 you know, the the body of Christ, which is another part of abolition, 477 00:38:37.340 --> 00:38:40.059 and I know it's part of your heart, pro life, whatever you 478 00:38:40.139 --> 00:38:46.090 want to call it. The body of Christ is the driving force, so 479 00:38:46.250 --> 00:38:52.449 to speak. It's the spirit filled human you know that. That is the 480 00:38:52.530 --> 00:39:00.480 body of Christ that is pushing this power to overcome the evil that's that's in 481 00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:06.559 front of us. So that guy over there who doesn't engage, only sings, 482 00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:09.429 or that guy over there that's on his knees praying his heart out, 483 00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:15.630 shedding tears, weeping, or the guy that's over here preaching the Gospel and 484 00:39:15.909 --> 00:39:17.750 get letting them have it, but the guy standing over here, Havn't with 485 00:39:17.869 --> 00:39:21.989 the sign, not saying a word, the exposing the evil, or the 486 00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:27.500 sweetheart setting over here saying mother, please let me talk to you, let 487 00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.699 me help you, let me share with you what I'm willing to do. 488 00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:35.019 Every one of those people are my brothers and sisters. Yeah, and we 489 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.809 have got to be together. Yeah, I have no animosity. I've never 490 00:39:37.849 --> 00:39:42.570 had any animosity toward you. I've always had the utmost respect for you and 491 00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:46.570 your faithfulness and service, and and yet we have our differences. We've talked 492 00:39:46.570 --> 00:39:50.730 about them. Right now. Yeah, that's okay, man. I want 493 00:39:50.730 --> 00:39:52.599 to do that, but if you need me, you call me. If 494 00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.679 you say Carl Dana, pay down here, come hold your sign. I'm 495 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.039 on there, you know. And and if I needed you to come speak 496 00:40:00.039 --> 00:40:02.519 to a group that you know, you would come. Yeah, so that 497 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:07.230 that is an important thing. And so I agree with you on some of 498 00:40:07.269 --> 00:40:10.949 the social media kind of stuff. As at as an abolitionist, I could 499 00:40:10.949 --> 00:40:15.389 have plenty of conflict. All how it does up my mouth or hold my 500 00:40:15.510 --> 00:40:17.070 side sometime. Don't have to my mouth, just almost side and I get 501 00:40:17.110 --> 00:40:21.269 plenty of conflict. I don't have to go searching for it and I don't 502 00:40:21.269 --> 00:40:25.260 have to show up at every argument that's out there. I do, I 503 00:40:25.539 --> 00:40:29.500 like to debate, you know, and stuff like that, but at the 504 00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:32.780 same time I try to keep in mind you're talking to a brother in Christ 505 00:40:32.900 --> 00:40:37.929 here, and you have the spirit of God living you in mind of Christ, 506 00:40:37.969 --> 00:40:43.329 and you don't no longer recognize people as their flesh. You recognize them 507 00:40:43.369 --> 00:40:45.969 according to the spirit of God, and so you really need to be mindful 508 00:40:45.969 --> 00:40:51.000 of that when you're debating and and, you know, hashing out some of 509 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:52.920 these differences. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, the body of 510 00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:58.800 Christ working together. Let me stare one thing. Yeah, before we move 511 00:40:58.880 --> 00:41:07.789 forward, you mentioned at the outset abolitionists, pro life, Aja Osa, 512 00:41:07.630 --> 00:41:13.269 there's there's all kinds of groups out there that are that are everywhere in the 513 00:41:13.550 --> 00:41:17.940 spectrum of abolitionist to pro life, whether you're consistent or inconsistent, how far 514 00:41:17.980 --> 00:41:24.900 apart you are. There's everything and everybody in between there. I'm I'm somewhere 515 00:41:24.940 --> 00:41:28.739 in between there. Yeah, okay. I know a lot of the guys 516 00:41:28.820 --> 00:41:31.019 in Aha. I know that some a lot of the guys in Osa. 517 00:41:31.500 --> 00:41:37.610 I know you. I know the guys in Love Life Charlotte. I mean 518 00:41:37.809 --> 00:41:45.889 there's all kinds of stuff going on that where Christians are involved. We consider 519 00:41:46.050 --> 00:41:53.199 ourselves abolish abortion North Carolina, okay, and so we don't we don't want 520 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:59.760 to be labeled or tagged to the point that, you know, we're having 521 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:05.230 to be contentious or were having to constantly defend things and answer questions about things 522 00:42:05.269 --> 00:42:12.829 that we haven't a focus and a heart and a drive toward what's going on 523 00:42:13.429 --> 00:42:17.860 right here in our backyard in North Carolina, and that is to abolish preborn 524 00:42:17.900 --> 00:42:22.739 murder here. Yeah, and I don't want to be distracted with constant, 525 00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:30.889 you know, bickering or dissension within the rank, so to speak. We're 526 00:42:30.929 --> 00:42:35.809 certainly willing to talk and have these discussions about differences or whatever, or methods 527 00:42:35.849 --> 00:42:39.889 and all those things. But we so we just, you know, we're 528 00:42:39.889 --> 00:42:45.519 abolition of society. We have the state covered. We have people from Ashville 529 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:51.000 to Ashe County, to my area of Hickory, to Thomasville, Charlotte, 530 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.599 Greensboro, Raleigh, Jacksonville. So we're from the coast to the central to 531 00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.590 the mountains and and we're a rag tag, you know, Motley crew of 532 00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:05.389 abolitionist and that's okay. Yeah, you know, and one of the things 533 00:43:05.429 --> 00:43:10.269 I appreciate about you is your faithfulness and being here in Charlotte, in a 534 00:43:10.510 --> 00:43:15.579 in a central location for so long, you know, seventeen years of ministry 535 00:43:15.619 --> 00:43:22.219 here, and and what's going on with with Love Life Charlotte to a degree 536 00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:30.610 that we're this area is an exceptional area in the sense that I hear a 537 00:43:30.730 --> 00:43:35.090 lot from whether it's pro life or abolitionists around the country, that it's a 538 00:43:35.130 --> 00:43:38.690 ghost town outside of clinics and meals and yeah, in other parts of the 539 00:43:38.769 --> 00:43:43.639 country and their begging and other parts of the world they're begging for other people 540 00:43:43.719 --> 00:43:45.719 to just show up. Yeah, and so one of the things that we 541 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:51.360 talked about earlier was if you're begging and you're wanting, people will just to 542 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:54.679 show up. When they show up, don't go nitpicking, you know. 543 00:43:54.989 --> 00:43:59.309 Yeah, what they're what they're doing. Necessarily, they showed up. Yeah, 544 00:43:59.349 --> 00:44:02.230 you know, give them a chance. One of the things I shared 545 00:44:02.269 --> 00:44:07.349 with you is that, you know, we nippick a certain church that may 546 00:44:07.429 --> 00:44:12.179 show up outside the clinic because we've seen their bumper sticker inside the parking lot, 547 00:44:12.260 --> 00:44:15.820 and then the next week another church comes down the street and the first 548 00:44:15.860 --> 00:44:19.980 thing goes through your mind is, Oh Gosh, another bunch of them. 549 00:44:20.019 --> 00:44:22.619 Yeah, you know, and you turn around and it's the people from your 550 00:44:22.619 --> 00:44:24.530 own church ry. Yeah, you know, God will put a check on 551 00:44:24.650 --> 00:44:29.650 you real quick if you don't keep those kind of things, you know, 552 00:44:29.889 --> 00:44:36.570 in in perspective. So that's you know, and I don't I'm not I 553 00:44:36.610 --> 00:44:38.280 don't want to think, I don't want you to think that I'm being selfish 554 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.320 by coming here today, but one of the things that I really value about 555 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:49.400 our time together is that I get an opportunity to share with the group and 556 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.949 the people that you know and the people that are listening to this podcast or 557 00:44:52.949 --> 00:44:55.670 viewing this podcast, abolition. Yeah, that's all I want to do. 558 00:44:55.909 --> 00:45:00.309 Yeah, there it is. If you got more questions, go to abolsh 559 00:45:00.349 --> 00:45:04.869 abortion North Carolinecom and find your answers. Yeah, or, you know, 560 00:45:04.989 --> 00:45:07.340 contact us and ask us. I'm not out here to steal your people. 561 00:45:07.340 --> 00:45:12.820 I'm not trying to infiltrate your group. I'm not trying to down you know, 562 00:45:13.019 --> 00:45:15.780 downgrade anything you've ever done or what other people are doing. I'm simply 563 00:45:15.860 --> 00:45:21.530 presenting abolition and and I'm want to stick to the tenants and I want to 564 00:45:21.570 --> 00:45:25.849 do it by assistance with your exceptional at and I'm good at agitation. Yeah, 565 00:45:25.849 --> 00:45:29.570 I like holding my sign and if somebody wants to talk, I'll be 566 00:45:29.650 --> 00:45:31.809 glad to talk. And however you want to come at me, you know 567 00:45:31.969 --> 00:45:36.400 I'll try to be as gentle as I can, but I'm not going to 568 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:38.840 compromise and I'm going to be consistent with the law enough in the faith. 569 00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:43.360 Yeah. So, yeah, that's good. I appreciate you coming, man, 570 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.440 because I think this is again a question that people have. People that 571 00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:52.949 are that are brand new into prolife or abolitionist stuff. I think need to 572 00:45:52.030 --> 00:45:58.989 hear the conversation like this and need to understand sort of why these issues are 573 00:45:59.030 --> 00:46:02.030 important, and I think a conversation like this sort of takes away some of 574 00:46:02.070 --> 00:46:06.820 the the contention that can be there and some of the bad view either way. 575 00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:08.260 Right, right, you know the bad view. The pro life people 576 00:46:08.260 --> 00:46:12.579 are all like this, or they abolitionist people are all like this, and 577 00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:16.300 no matter what you know, this is. I know that you're not speaking 578 00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:21.130 speaking for everyone who's an age a person or we claim to be an abolitionist. 579 00:46:21.130 --> 00:46:24.570 I'm certainly not speaking for everybody that would claim to be prolife or whatever. 580 00:46:25.730 --> 00:46:29.610 Not a monolithic group either way. Right. Ultimately, though, what 581 00:46:29.730 --> 00:46:34.400 it comes down to is the Gospel being the center of the thing. Anything 582 00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:37.519 we do, we I say it and I'll say it again. I spoke 583 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.840 with the church just the other night, with their evangelism team. I said, 584 00:46:39.880 --> 00:46:45.840 listen, if we're doing anything that is good, that's not reclaim in 585 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:51.909 the Gospel, it's just a humanitarian effort. Right, humanitarian efforts are good. 586 00:46:52.150 --> 00:46:54.789 That's fine. Do Humanitarian Efforts, but if you're going to claim to 587 00:46:54.829 --> 00:46:59.230 be Gospel censored, that Gospel has to be a part of what you're doing, 588 00:46:59.510 --> 00:47:05.300 or else it's just a humanitarian effort. Jesus didn't say that that he's 589 00:47:05.340 --> 00:47:08.940 gonna build his humanitarian effort that's about to tell people Jesus didn't say that I'm 590 00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:12.619 going to build my prolife movement. Now he says I'm going to build my 591 00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:15.050 church and the gates of hell won't prevail against it's not. The gates of 592 00:47:15.130 --> 00:47:20.489 hell won't prevail against the abolitionist or the pro life people or the Blah Blah 593 00:47:20.530 --> 00:47:23.050 Blah, Blah Blah whatever. The gates of hell do not prevail against the 594 00:47:23.170 --> 00:47:27.489 Church of Jesus Christ and ultimately, what it's about, the true body of 595 00:47:27.530 --> 00:47:30.559 Christ bring in the Gospel, and so I appreciate that that perspective from you. 596 00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:36.320 Appreciate you. You coming and talking and I can't. God never said 597 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:38.679 I could. He can and he always said he would. Yeah, this 598 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.920 ain't about me and you and it ain't about anybody else that we can lay 599 00:47:42.920 --> 00:47:47.110 our eyes on. I learned a long time ago, and discipleship and counseling, 600 00:47:47.949 --> 00:47:51.829 been involved in that for twenty years, one on one, and you 601 00:47:51.949 --> 00:47:54.590 know, groups and couples and all those kind of things, is that you've 602 00:47:54.590 --> 00:47:58.739 got to deal with the soul that's right in front of you. Yeah, 603 00:47:58.940 --> 00:48:04.980 and it's not about you and not necessarily about them. It's about him. 604 00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:08.179 Yeah, and when Christ is the central thing, the Gospel, which is 605 00:48:08.579 --> 00:48:12.619 found in the word of God, stick to the truth, stick to the 606 00:48:12.739 --> 00:48:15.730 Gospel, God will, will carry out his word, will not come back 607 00:48:15.849 --> 00:48:21.849 board. His spirit is not incapable. Yeah, all power, all ability, 608 00:48:22.210 --> 00:48:25.650 all work is done in Christ. And and that's how you change the 609 00:48:25.730 --> 00:48:29.360 world. Yeah, that's how he changed the world. That's how he commissioned 610 00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.199 US and commanded us to go out and do the same thing. Amen. 611 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.519 Amen, I appreciate it. But I appreciate you talking, man, and 612 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.079 you're what's the website? Now? Abolish abortion North Carolina. Okay, abolish 613 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.150 abortion North Carolina. And if somebody goes on that website, is there like 614 00:48:44.230 --> 00:48:46.389 a contact thing so they can cheat every email? They should be able to 615 00:48:46.590 --> 00:48:51.389 and they should also be able to sign our petition. We didn't get into 616 00:48:51.389 --> 00:48:53.670 a whole lot of stuff like that, but you know you, I've seen 617 00:48:53.710 --> 00:48:59.019 you guys down at the city council meeting. We've got to be out there, 618 00:48:59.139 --> 00:49:02.780 we got to got to take advantage of every thing that that is set 619 00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:08.739 before us to make a difference and bring the Gospel to the community. So 620 00:49:09.170 --> 00:49:15.250 City Councils, your local legislators, your local, local communities, churches, 621 00:49:16.409 --> 00:49:24.679 legislators, you know, state capitals, anything that you can do to present 622 00:49:24.800 --> 00:49:30.039 the message, petitions, whatever you can do. Get out there and do 623 00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:32.199 it. Show up, speak up, you know. Yeah, do the 624 00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:37.199 work of abolition. Yeah, okay, so that. Yeah, so connect 625 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:45.030 with with Carl on their website, abolish aboard or in see our North Carolinacom, 626 00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:49.190 and then our website is Charlotte dot cities for Life Dot Org, and 627 00:49:49.230 --> 00:49:52.829 they we also have a national website that we mentioned often, which is sidewalks 628 00:49:52.900 --> 00:49:55.820 for life, so I walks the number four, and Lifecom, which is 629 00:49:55.860 --> 00:50:00.059 an equipping website, which is basically, Hey, we've learned and we've learned 630 00:50:00.059 --> 00:50:02.179 a lot. We've made a lot of mistakes and so I will counseling. 631 00:50:02.539 --> 00:50:06.860 Here's the stuff that we've learned since just information out there to quit people, 632 00:50:06.900 --> 00:50:08.730 to bring the Gospel to the abortion center. So those who are who are 633 00:50:08.730 --> 00:50:12.690 listening, those who are watching, you can go to there. You can 634 00:50:12.730 --> 00:50:15.409 connect with Carl their website. We appreciate you, guys, and just pray 635 00:50:15.449 --> 00:50:20.289 that you're blessed by listening to this podcast and if you have a question about 636 00:50:20.289 --> 00:50:23.599 this podcast or anything for me, Daniel Parks or d parks. Sorry, 637 00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:28.119 at cities, the number four and lifecom. You can shoot me over an 638 00:50:28.159 --> 00:50:30.119 email. Be certainly willing to connect you with Carl if maybe you need to 639 00:50:30.199 --> 00:50:34.639 be connected with him or you have any questions. But we appreciate all those 640 00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:39.389 who watch and listen. Thanks and God blessed. Use, MIL use, 641 00:50:42.869 --> 00:51:05.610 give me my life, but now things too precious.